Post #17,249
11/7/01 8:03:33 PM
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The power of prayer
A couple of excerpt from an article describing the outcome of two studies of the effect of prayer. "We were not expecting to find a positive result," says Lobo. Researchers have re-analyzed the data several times, to detect any discrepancies -- but have been unable to find any, he says. Why did prayer produce the best outcome? "There are no satisfactory mechanistic explanations," he says. That's why studies that measure patients' outcomes are best for this kind of study, he says. Even if you don't understand why it's happening, at least you have something to measure -- how the patient did." "It's just like anything else, you don't have to believe in it for prayer to have an effect," says Justice. You can find the article [link|http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/1728.92943|here]. Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #17,254
11/7/01 8:33:38 PM
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While the sample in this study is a bit low
to 'settle' any metaphysical arguments, there are by now enough data around, especially from other than allopathic medicine practitioners: to demonstrate that our understanding of emotional effects upon the 'entire organism' is miniscule. (Not just the 'body', as that is a possibly false dichotomy).
As to demonstrating one of our fav ideas, causality, re prayer, meditation, positive feelings of others (too) - why not indeed see what anonymous folk can accomplish? But let's get the sample rate up there another order of magnitude, if we're going to try for stats.
I doubt that we shall devise a standard unit for Caring, however (as with the Dol for pain, based on squeezing the ankle, etc.) And that begs the question of "anonymous testers 'praying on command' for strangers" - and quantifying those events.
So I think these studies will elude those who look for Certainty in numbers..
(or - any Certainty at all)
Just a hunch.
Ashton
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Post #17,300
11/8/01 9:03:34 AM
11/8/01 9:10:45 AM
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Remember when the earth was flat?
From the article:
>>>>
While current technology does not allow researchers to understand the mechanism behind prayer -- what makes it work -- it's much like gravity and other natural phenomena that were considered mysterious forces by earlier cultures, Justice tells WebMD.
"Keppler was accused of being insane when he said tides were due to the tug of lunar gravity, even Galileo considered it to be ravings of a lunatic -- until Marconi proved the theory," he says.
<<<<
There are still a few things in this universe that we don't fully understand, eh?
The following site is both intriguing and disturbing, and I'm not even sure why yet.
[link|http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/gdpmanu/psychic/psyc-1.htm#introductory|Psychic Powers
]
The teaching of the ancient wisdom is that there is indeed more to the universe than can be measured by our physical senses -- or by our laboratory researches, which are but an extension of the powers of our sensory perceptions. Our physical universe is but a reflection of a vast and invisible realm, filled full with many grades of conscious living beings. It is their combined activities which bring about what we call the laws of nature, but which might better be called the habits of nature.
Mankind forms one group of these invisible entities -- because, after all, the conscious thinking self of us is invisible. The portion of the universe that we call visible is merely that aspect of it for which we have developed organs of perception: the eye, the ear, and so on. Those aspects of the universe that we cannot perceive with our senses are not far away, in some distant stretches of space, but are right with us here and now, interpenetrating our physical sphere and impinging upon our inner selves at every moment of the day and night.
It is a mistake to suppose that invisibility necessarily implies spirituality. Assuredly spiritual energies have their source in the unseen realms of nature, but evil energies do likewise. The physical world is like a great arena for the enactment of the pageant of life, which we as human beings are at one and the same time taking part in and beholding. But this gorgeous and sometimes very tragic presentment only feebly depicts the unseen forces, both exalted and degraded, which move the actors to noble or to sordid deeds.
<<<<
PSYCHOKINESIS ...the ability to have mind over matter, meaning to have the ability to move things with your mind, to bend metal spoons and keys, and to be able to influance the outcome of events.
Edited by brettj
Nov. 8, 2001, 09:10:45 AM EST
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Post #17,453
11/9/01 5:04:23 AM
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Theosophical Society
Mme. Blavatsky was among the earliest to attempt to bring to the West, some sense of ancient Eastern thought - this at a time when 'parlor tricks' and 'mediums' were all the rage. (That is - other than individual exchanges). She attempted to speak reasonably and deliberately about.. the invisible (whatever is or isn't there) - from as much of 'the scientific method' as might be possible, given that peer review is hardly posssible - of an individual experience (!) A healthy skepticism would have to suffice.
I don't know the reasoning for attributing the Good/Evil dichotomy within her model - but again, one has to consider the time in the US, the public mood - and what terms she thought might be close-enough metaphors to work with.
Anyway.. the Theosophical Society has passed the century mark. But as always - one can go nearer the source of the ideas presented, then as now. Just depends on the degree and urgency of interest. East/West is just another artificial dichotomy anyway -- either 'Truth' is the only monad (or we have to then invent anti-Truth and guarantee Good and Bad Angels dancing on those metaphorical pins).
As to prayer.. it's a tacit assumption locally, that it is about 'asking for stuff' from some One. Understandable that , but also possibly - limiting of horizons to a familiar model (?)
Hell - we can't even agree on an 'economic' model for the pedestrian daily moving around of things, from one place or pocket to another - even with such fancy jargon as velocity of money and others as Strange as a Quark.
Why should we imagine a useful 'explication' of All and Everything, in words: if we can't even figure out where/whether goods+money have anything much to do with 'real life'?
Enjoy the Safari,
A.
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Post #17,489
11/9/01 11:46:24 AM
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Re: Theosophical Society
The problem with Blavatsky is that not only did she bring some Eastern though into the West but she also brought some common Indian practice. Specifically fraud and deception, practices that are all to ingrained as part of Indian religious practice.
Not to blame India alone in this, Blavatsky was also associated with the Spiritualism movement, and she copied many of her deceptions from that.
Jay
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Post #17,614
11/9/01 7:07:07 PM
11/9/01 7:26:22 PM
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Agreed.
Maybe the over-simplifications (Good/Evil and such) she deemed about all the traffic would bear ~ the last '01 in America, but that doesn't excuse the er 'Indian culture' artifacts.
I suspect that those whose 'search' ended with Mme. B. weren't looking for much.. except party conversation.
BTW - any honest 'Sages' from thereabouts echo the same observation re the 'religious' practices tacked-on to the base ideas, and the omnipresent stealing. (which is hardly anything to do with any Important stuff - just homo-sap being normal)
Seen One Corp-Religion on any compass point: seen 'em -
Ashton
PS - Sometimes the $ part is.. mainly about supporting the 'project'. (Or even about, demonstrating our conditioned $-fascination via a brief experience of umm disdain?)
Gurdjieff (and Ouspensky) appeared here on a similar mission in '20s. There are still such schools around, but emphasis from the outset is about 'verifying' not memorizing stuff. I see those as a step some have found to be worth going through, depending.. but as Ever! caveat emptor
There Is No Free Truth\ufffd
[That's actually not far from one of Mr. G's main Points re "free" stuff]
A.
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Post #17,522
11/9/01 2:08:04 PM
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Good thing this isn't in science
A few facts.
- Contrary to much popular legend, in the Middle Ages the popular belief was that the world was round. Not only did they think it was round, but they had fairly accurate estimates of the size of the Earth, for which reason in the historical record of the debates about whether to fund Columbus, the main issue was that he was depending on a gross underestimate of the size of the Earth, and didn't have the resources to get to China. The legend about people thinking the Earth was flat arose in the 1800's.
- The theory that tides came about from the motions of the Earth are due to Galileo, not Kepler, and Galileo did not think they were crazy. See [link|http://es.rice.edu/ES/humsoc/Galileo/Things/tides.html|this link] for more.
- Galileo's theory was wrong in large part. The correct explanation for the tides was found by Newton. It is true that the motion of the Earth has something to do with it, but the effect is due to imbalances between the force of gravity, and the force needed to keep objects moving in a circle. On the whole the two balance out, but on the side closest to the Moon, gravity is stronger, and on the side away from the Moon centripetal acceleration is. This leads to forces away from the center of the Earth at both ends, causing high tides, and then a corresponding low tide in between.
- WTF does Marconi have to do with this? He is famous for radio, not tides. Besides which by his day the orbital mechanics responsible were long-known, well-proven, and there were direct measurements of how strong G (the tendancy for two bodies to attract each other) was.
Call me a biased scientific bigot if you will, but I have generally found that people who get this much basic science wrong from the start, usually get the rest wrong as well. And wading through the mistakes is usually painful enough for me to chuck it into the circular bin, unread... Cheers, Ben
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Post #17,670
11/10/01 9:04:56 AM
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You didn't address the question though. (:
But thanks for the detailed reply. Nice and concise.
The point was not really about physical science but rather about the power of thought, wasn't it? I think, therefore I am, I think?
What I am interested in is the invisible realm of our psyche.
Mind over matter. How & Why can a mere thought change a person, the world and possibly the entire universe? Can the power of prayer/thought/hope affect the outcome of a physical event? Penny for your thoughts.
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Post #17,682
11/10/01 2:11:29 PM
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My thought's are worth a penny?
And here I have been handing them out for free all along! If I only had known... :-)
At one point I did a lot of reading about mind and matter. Things like ESP. The conclusion that I came to is that the research that supports paranormal powers is uncommonly poorly done. However I also believe that attitudes and physical state are not unconnected. The placebo effect is real. Furthermore people are often equipped with better powers of observation than they can access rationally, and so there is value in having ways to access this "intuition".
Now about the placebo effect. A single-blind study is where the people the patient interacts with know what is happening, but don't talk to the patient. A double-blind study is one where the people the patient interacts with are themselves blind. No serious medical research today is done with a single-blind study. Why? Because of a classic set of experiements showing that the beliefs of doctors in a single-blind study affected whether people lived or died.
So if you believe in prayer, and you are surrounded by people who believe in prayer, whether or not prayer has a real direct effect, believing that it does, and knowing that it is being tried on your behalf has a real chance of helping. In fact if you merely have someone you trust who believes in prayer, and they know prayer is being done on your behalf, based on research in the placebo effect that is a single blind study and their belief (even though unshared by you) that something is being done may well help.
It may be just a placebo effect, but I hate throwing away something effective because of a prejudice about the label...
And on a related note, I believe that, say, Tarot is bunk. But I firmly believe that a person with a good intuition who believes in Tarot, and whose rational mind gets out of the way when (s)he does Tarot, is likelly to give valuable Tarot readings.
Again, just because I believe the purported tool is broken is no need to throw away potentially useful results.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #17,703
11/10/01 7:57:48 PM
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A physical payment for an invisible good.
(penny, or $50,000 for your thoughts/ideas)
Too bad I don't have the $50 grand to pay you for your well constructed analysis. Suffice it so say that I value your input, along with the rest of the invisible people here.
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