Post #172,387
9/2/04 9:56:09 AM
|
On a recent thought...
I have been really wondering, that all the time and effort I put into things for people, whether or not these things stay in place or just get R&R'd
You see, I just found out soem of the stuff I worked HOURS and HOURS on for some "Professional Friends" (not anyone here)... Just plucked it out and put on W2K3 and now would like me to do it again as the Windows Solution was not even close to being a featureful or as flexible.
This REALLY REALLY ticks me off. I did it out of goodwill for this person and company to get them out of a problem. Now they want it ASAP. I said, why should *I* do it again? They whipped out the lawyers and threatened me with a lawsuit. This was an E-Commerce Solution with what I used was a modified LAMP solution (actually LAPPP&P Linux, Apache, Postgresql, PHP, Python and Perl). It was very good, the company could do anything they needed to, as they could write what ever they wanted with PHP, Perl, Python or PGSQL.
They went to a .NET solution with help from M$ that M$ paid to help them out... converted everything to .NET... but... well... nothing was documented or converted cleanly. The used conversion scripts, written in "ActivePerl" concidentally. (these were left on the machine BTW, might be able to fetch them!)
So, I guess my real question here is: Do you all think the time and effort I go to help *everyone*[1] out is something I should stop doing?
I really enjoy helping out others, take every effort to help those that DO indeed *TRY* to help themselves. But, lately it seems the help is now being expected and required, rather than Volunteered and Optional.
[1] Yes, everyone, except one former employer (_+3|\\|Z1|\\|K Steel (backward the 7337 speek is: KNIZNEG) don't want it searchable now.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
Post #172,391
9/2/04 10:02:39 AM
|
This particular case is clear enough
Get your own lawer and screw them as hard as you can this side of legal.
As for general case... You can't be anything but yourself. If helping is your nature, it can't be helped. As a Russian poet once said, "If you are able not to write, then don't".
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
|
Post #172,414
9/2/04 11:19:13 AM
|
I agree mostly with this
However, being one of those "helpful" persons in nature, sometimes you have to look at a situation and actually decide NOT to help, step back and fight your nature.
I know it's hard, but sometimes when your sanity or some other part of your life is at stake, it can be done.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
|
Post #172,393
9/2/04 10:07:50 AM
|
On what grounds?
You did the work. They replaced it. You're done.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
|
Post #172,405
9/2/04 10:44:06 AM
|
Up to you
As others have mentioned, these people have no valid claim on your time. If you need to get a lawyer to tell them that, do so. (Since their claim is so bad, this may well be easy to do.) If you want, you could even go to various others that you have been similarly generous with, tell them the story, and ask for assistance with paying for your lawyer. You'll likely find that you have some good karma stored up, in fact you might want to start by talking with a client who has an in-house corporate lawyer, might be cheaper that way...
Going forward, you need to weigh the enjoyment of being helpful with the risks of running across assholes like this. Educate yourself on what it will take to guarantee that nothing like this will be a problem again. Hopefully it won't take much.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
|
Post #172,408
9/2/04 11:04:14 AM
|
You scared me there
Explain what they want from you and what they think you owe them.
|
Post #172,426
9/2/04 12:39:42 PM
|
That is why I said (not anyone here)
I did a similar thing for them as for you.
The only thing was I had console access. Here in GR.
Basically, I setup an E-Commerce to MRP/Push-Pull Front-End and Gateway. I used all pieces in this system using COTS FOSS. Well, except for the Certs from Certificate Auths.
It was by far a PITA. Getting connections proper, getting things to talk once the connection was established, using the Postgresql as a storage place for all data in the front-end as a seperate DB with a another db being used solely for data transfer and verification between these 2 systems.
I "customized" things I discovered wrong in code to work proper in the Perl, Python and PHP scripts I had used. I was able to get these people to understand (the programmers that is) how to use the various languages each for its niche. It was amazing how good these previously M$ Visual VB/C/C++ only people were (4 in total). Within 7 working days after I got everything at least talking to each other proper... They had fixed everything coming from disparate pieces I pulled together into something that was truly good looking and functional with about a total of 40 hours between them, they said thanks and off I went.
That was about the time I became extrememly frustrated looking for a job. I thought nothing of throwing 120 hours at this.
But, now is a different story.
From what I just got off the phone with 1 of the programmers, that used to work there, she said that a new "Ops Director" came in a forced the change... She Quit with 2 of the other 3 as well as they were in the ASP crap before and wanted out.
Well, .NET applicants are fast and furious and a nickel a dozen right now... some claiming 5 years experience with .NET.
Well it all rolls down to the fact the New "Ops Director" has seen productivity fall to less than 30% of the previous system since implementing .NET Everything (E-Commerce/ERP/HR/DATA capture etc...) with an actual worsening of performance in the forecast. Board said if he doesn't improve soon (I am guessing the End of Spetember), he will not have to.
The "OPs Director" has made insane offers to the 3 people that left (as well as the existing person, lest he leave) to comeback. These have one requirement beside the pay.
I'll bet you cannot guess what that requirement is?
That is right, now they are trying to force me to MAKE the system for the Front-End again...
TO be honest, the programmers had created another Postgresql DB for Data Wharehousing and reporting. Since I already had things working proeperly from the other systems... and this machine actually was toddling along @ about 5% utilization during peak data/order entry. So they make a reporting setup that worked from the browser and printed just fine from any browser. They also made a "data entry" system that was much better suited for the wharehouse using my setup as well. Lotsa stuff actually used that setup.
This company used to sell most Soap Products mostly... through Direct Distributors. Which was a special soap was the original product of the two founders of it.
Now, they do tremendous huge hy-freaking-arge amounts of http orders and data entry. Not just the e-commerce stuff either warehouse entries and such.
And now you see why... Using Apache with mod_perl, mod_python, php and other pieces... they were able to make anything happen. The "Ops Director" wants it back.
So, now I just wait until my ~6PM appt with a friend that is a partner in a large Law Firm here in GR.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
Post #172,428
9/2/04 12:45:59 PM
|
Like I asked before, what grounds?
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
|
Post #172,429
9/2/04 12:47:09 PM
|
Good recap, but...
What do they think you OWE them?
Anything on paper / email with promises of support?
Have you been billing them ongoing or is there an
expectation that since you did the orginal system,
you owe them some type of ongoing support?
An if so, does have the usualy caveat that when someone
else changes the system support is withdrawn and
needs to be renegotiated?
And does support == modifications?
And would you be willing to deal with them for some serious
$$$ anyway?
|
Post #172,434
9/2/04 1:17:48 PM
|
First time was a favor
For a friend (whom was the one I chatted with on the phone)
$0 cost for them.
I needed things to keep me sharp.
There was never any type of support planned or even offered. Sure when they got stuck once, I offered my opinion on what needed to happen. That was only 1 e-mail.
The deal was, I do this and get something to keep me sharp and they get a system that works and was supportable by the IT Department. As everything else was homegrown, this fell right in line.
Upto this point I have not billed or gotten any money from them.
I don't plan on doing it a second time for free.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
Post #172,435
9/2/04 1:37:02 PM
|
Ooooohhhh
Do you have the time to give what it need?
|
Post #172,436
9/2/04 1:38:34 PM
|
@$400/hr? *grin*
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #172,437
9/2/04 1:54:00 PM
|
I don't know if I want to, given the amount of...
Stick they have used so far...
It'd take something like that $400/hr for me to do it with CLEAR terms.
Hell, the problem is, I don't even bill companies that I *have* an agreement with...
We shall see. The outlook is it probably will come down to another favor for my friend again...
At least I have already done it once. I did document most of the stuff I did for them and gave it to them.
We shall see.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
Post #172,440
9/2/04 2:29:30 PM
|
Get a contract
Clearly define the scope, time commitment, support and compensation. Run it by a lawyer of your choice, and then send it to them. If they agree to the terms, you have a job. If not, you owe them nothing.
Unless there is significantly more to the story that what you've told, I don't see where they have any claim on you.
From the sounds of it, you must definitely have a contract. If you do it for free as a favor to your friend again, you'll only make the situation worse, they'll always expect you to do it for free.
And if you DON'T want the job, price yourself way high, so that if the DO decide to accept, you'll be well compensated.
Email me and I can help generate a "starting point" contract.
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail ... but, a true friend will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn...that was fun!"
|
Post #172,441
9/2/04 2:33:49 PM
|
I'd still suggest thinking carefully about terms
If you can see your way through to do this for pay, it could be very lucrative. (And recall, you are only working for, say, $70/hour. The other $330/hour is not for the quality of your work, it is an apology for having brought lawyers into the picture. I know you, you always overdeliver. But you only need to overdeliver on the $70/hour...)
And it opens up the following way to avoid trouble: indicate that the more lawyers they apply to you now, the higher your rate will become. That would be doubly convincing if this can be backed up by a lawyer indicating that they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning in court. Make sure that this indication is made directly to all key decision makers in the company, particularly anyone who is equal or higher than the new ops director.
If you can't see your way clear to a solution like this, they become trapped rats with no escape route. They see no way out but through you, so no matter how bad their odds are, they have to try and force you.
Give them a better escape route and their instincts will be to stampede towards it.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
|
Post #172,597
9/3/04 10:59:35 AM
|
^^^^^^^that is the answer
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #172,431
9/2/04 12:58:53 PM
|
It sounds like OpsDir should be using a *lot* more carrot
with you (and the former employees) and a lot less stick. But I'll bet he won't.
As far as I can tell, they have no claim on you or your time.
Best of luck!
Cheers,
Scott.
|
Post #172,520
9/2/04 8:04:07 PM
|
Small piece of advice.
It's helped me in my various job-hunts. If you won't do it on Windows, state that that is an immovable condition. I've told several recruiters that I won't support Windows servers. I can be persuaded to support Windows desktops, but not servers. I've found it is too stressful. So I won't do it. Here, I see you chose a non-Windows solution for probably several good reasons. He needs the opportunity to hear what those were.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
|
Post #172,508
9/2/04 7:06:35 PM
|
As my Mater used to say,
When you've said that a person is ungrateful - you've said it all.
(She also said, you can be as easy as an old shoe - and worth as little.)
I am not you; I'd be LIVID at the mere suggestion that, a pro bono job which I had completed successfully had been ripped out, a Toy 'solution' fallen for.. and somehow: I AM RESPONSIBLE to do it again?
Having been in the audio business, I'm aware that there are such leeches - and guess what: often in the so-called 'Professional' class (among the least trustworthy of verbal contracts IME - MDs. We all know about lawyers). The uncivilized-grade MBA mentality appears to have spread to all levels of bizness; you'd know that quite better than I.
I would think that if you caved, without the above suggested legal dance being done, you would next, soon Hate yourself; clearly these droids are despicable. Dealing with the despicable under duress - I think we call Hell.
Luck.. but first Fight!
Ashton
probably not nearly as Nice as you are, towards the terminally ungrateful
|
Post #172,531
9/2/04 8:39:17 PM
|
Bizarre
You put together a solution for them that works. It gets ripped out and the replacement doesn't work near as well. How, pray tell, can they possibly spin this into your responsibility?
I like Ben's idea. (embellished)
1. Get threatend: Set fee arbitrarily high.
2. Get threatened again. Double the fee.
3. Get threatened yet again. Explain the concept of geometric growth.
4. Profit!
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
|
Post #172,583
9/3/04 9:15:37 AM
|
My 2 cents
You did the original work Gratis, they are requiring you to redo that work. I assume they are taking the fact that the original work was changed, badly and need it reworked asap. They are also taking the position that since you provided them a business solution ou have implied fitness. Have them read any license, including Microsoft's about fintess for any purpose. Also note that you do not have the time to "rescue" them from their own mistakes. Happily agree to rework it for a billable rate, comparative to what other folks charge to put it back into workable shape with the clear understanding you are billing for hourly service, not for product. Get it in writing and pay to have a legal eye rove over it. Also feel free to email me the lagality crap they are pushing, may be able to help there.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #172,595
9/3/04 10:56:02 AM
|
After the 6 O'Clock Dinner I paid for...
I had a nice chat with my lawyer friend.
Basically the only thing they have is Heresay.
A declaration that I said "I'd help if it was needed." but that was to my friend that doesn't work there anymore. He is also one of the ones they are trying to get back to work for them. The one I made a phone call to.
Lawyer says, wait til they figure out I basically instructed them to STFU, you have no grounds. He wrote a draft letter last night and we agreed the tack to take.
If they don't understand it clearly, there are about 200 cases of law that can back my side up. Only about 4 that could be considered for them... but were under completely different terms.
Basically, they have a few options, but all of them will fail[1] in front of a judge.
I only have to wait for the response to the STFU letter (worded much better than that though (I HOPE!!!)) and then decide if I will help them and if I do what level of grief I will put them under... and since the advantage is mine, they will sign something like a "letter of held harmless" or something like that to prvent any furtherance of this. As suggested by my fire-nd.
Hope this goes away quickly.
[1] 99.9% chance... there is always the odd exception.
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
Post #172,596
9/3/04 10:58:33 AM
|
Good!
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
|
Post #172,622
9/3/04 1:33:11 PM
|
Nicely done!
IANAL, but I do have 19+ years as an independent consultant. for what it's worth, I believe you did exactly the right thing, the right way. Now sit back, have a beer (or whatever your favorite beverage-du-jour is) and wait for the serve to be returned.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #172,658
9/3/04 4:23:34 PM
|
I believe that would be a six-pack of Dew. ;-)
|
Post #172,660
9/3/04 4:31:34 PM
|
Dude! Diet Dew
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
|
Post #172,695
9/3/04 9:45:17 PM
|
So freaking correcter!
-- [link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg], [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwetheyNo matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]Here is an example: [link|http://www.greymagic.com/security/advisories/gm001-ie/|Executing arbitrary commands without Active Scripting or ActiveX when using Windows]
|
