Post #171,826
8/30/04 11:18:51 PM
8/30/04 11:19:39 PM
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Ah was wrong about affects
The processor zone IS going up slightly when the Zone 2 goes up. It just isn't going high enough to alarm, is all. In fact, further examination of the gauges shows me that all the zones raise slightly when Zone 2 does, and drop slightly when Zone 2 does.
Puzzling. Still trying to figure out why zone 2 is acting so strange.
Nightowl >8#
Edit: finished last sentence, cut off and sent it too quick.
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Edited by Nightowl
Aug. 30, 2004, 11:19:39 PM EDT
Ah was wrong about affects
The processor zone IS going up slightly when the Zone 2 goes up. It just isn't going high enough to alarm, is all. In fact, further examination of the gauges shows me that all the zones raise slightly when Zone 2 does, and drop slightly when Zone 2 does.
Puzzling. Still trying to figure out why.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,920
8/31/04 11:31:37 AM
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Re: Ah was wrong about affects
Is that near your hard drives? They can tend to heat up a lot.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #171,923
8/31/04 11:36:17 AM
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Not sure about Hard Drives
But John said it was in a more "cluttered" area and I asked him what he meant, and he said there was more stuff there. It's under the Power Supply, and nearer the front where all the stuff is mounted, so that probably includes the hard drive.
If I could figure out what speed System Fan 2 should be running at, I could monitor if the rapidly changing numbers are right or wrong, but I'm not sure how to figure out the speed it should be.
For example, it goes from 1240, to 1224, back up to 1245, down to 1220, all in the space of a few seconds. Is that normal?
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,927
8/31/04 11:42:41 AM
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best thing to do is throw that alarm thingy away
its gonna run until it quits, if there is a burning smell and smoke, turn it off. You dont have your refrigerator or TV set running with a health monitor do you?
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #171,931
8/31/04 11:44:00 AM
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Well...
I'd rather not burn up my CPU. If it's a fan, I want to figure out which fan it is and replace it. :)
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,933
8/31/04 11:45:33 AM
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Here ya go
[link|http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Jun/bch20030627020588.htm|http://www.geek.com/...0030627020588.htm]
You can name this one "Mr. Freeze".
-drl
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Post #171,932
8/31/04 11:44:09 AM
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rofl agreed
You can jack up the ranges in the BIOS in any case.
But Box - this doesn't work for cars. This - doesn't - work - for - cars.
-drl
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Post #171,936
8/31/04 11:48:50 AM
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of course not
just because there is a burning smell and smoke is no reason to stop driving.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #171,938
8/31/04 11:51:27 AM
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Oh I beg to differ
A burning smell, smoke and loud clunk made me pull over to the side of the highway while driving dad's car...
Moments later it burst into flame.
Luckily I wasn't in it any more. Wish cars had such alarms!
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,941
8/31/04 11:55:12 AM
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He said 'smoke and burning smell,' nothing about a clunk
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #171,944
8/31/04 11:57:06 AM
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Ah ok
So the clunk is what made it catch fire then? ;)
Hehehe!
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,945
8/31/04 11:59:41 AM
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certainly the clunk was at fault
a gas powered motor in an older car does not burn fuel efficiently giving off a buning smell. The rings get old so oil escapes into the cylinders an gets burned giving off white smoke, a clunk however means that the motor is now broken, and you can drive a car that is burst in flames, you just dont want to drive it much further than out of traffic. I have done so more than once.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #171,949
8/31/04 12:11:13 PM
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We never completely determined it
But the power steering pump was gong bad, (Dad had been told this and had not got around to having fixed it), and later it was determined by the firemen that the fire started at the power steering pump.
I guess I wasn't aware of old cars doing that burning smell/smoke thing, cause my old car has a new engine. :)
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,947
8/31/04 12:03:26 PM
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Smoke, smell, clunk, dead body in trunk...
..kept on steppin' (on it).
Speaking of dead body, how's this for wasted driving?
[link|http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/Nation/story/472EB4A03212537986256F000051AD82?OpenDocument&Headline=Police%3A+Drunken+man+drives+home+after+passenger+decapitated%3B&tetl=1|http://www.stltoday....pitated%3B&tetl=1]
He probably stuck his head out to puke, then the guy eased over thinking in his best drunken logic, "if I pull over he'll miss the door".
Can it be long until we see "Calvin headless" truck stickers?
"NO _EAR"
-drl
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Post #171,955
8/31/04 12:43:51 PM
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that is funny as hell.
you imagine the speed he had to have been going to get a clean decap like that? Much less the sharp right turn effect, steering thru the bloodspatter on the windshield, his buddy doing the headless chicken tango beside him as he has another pull on his longneck.
thanx,
bill
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #171,964
8/31/04 1:10:39 PM
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Re: that is funny as hell.
A wino sitting there nursing a double shot of vodka shakes and shivers, staring into his glass at the galactic swirl of a trillion red cells dying in the ethanol. - Neal Stephenson, Snow Crash. The "another pull on his longneck" brought that to mind... What will we do when we are Gods?
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Post #171,983
8/31/04 2:44:47 PM
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Re: Not sure about Hard Drives
you might see if the auto fan speed can be turned off so that the fan in that zone runs full speed. That setting would be in the CMOS if anything.
If there are drives right over that zone, you might consider (if there's room) a fan mounted in front of the drives pulling air between them and out. For purposes of airflow, you'd want to make sure there's a fan pulling air into the case as well
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #171,984
8/31/04 2:52:55 PM
8/31/04 2:54:23 PM
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Thanks
I'll ask John. I know it has LOTS of fans, I think 5 or so, but I get mixed up. He bought the case specifically because it had a really good cooling system, and it has a lot of room to work in, it isn't cramped whatsoever.
Oddly enough though, today the temperature in Zone 2 hasn't gotten above 88 once. Still not sure what the problem was yesterday, but it is a lot cooler in here today. My indoor thermometer on the desk says it's 80 in here.
Nightowl >8#
Edit: It says in Nikolai's spec sheet (I created) that the case is a Silver Alunimum Dual Cooling ATX Case.
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Edited by Nightowl
Aug. 31, 2004, 02:54:23 PM EDT
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Post #172,089
8/31/04 10:51:05 PM
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Okay, here is what I know about fans, etc.
There are two fans in the front that are intake fans, and I was wrong about the placement of Zone 2. It's actually behind the processor towards the back, near the Power Supply, not near the Hard Drives and other mounted things.
The Power Supply, which is next to the motherboard, does not feel hot. There is a fan mounted right on the CPU, one on the power supply that is an outtake fan, and there's another outtake fan on the back built into the case. That's a total of 5 fans. When the temp was up higher in Zone 2 yesterday, that side of the CPU did feel hotter than the other, but the CPU itself was not that hot.
As for fan speed, John hasn't had a chance to look at speed settings yet, and I'm trying to determine what the safe speed should be, but I need to dig more through my manuals or track down info online. I was very busy today, and didn't do that yet. And I went out tonight to watch some of the World Cup Hockey game, so hopefully I can do more research tonight or tomorrow. I did find a schematic of the board, if that would help diagnose the problem, It's the D845PESV board and it can be found here:
[link|http://www.intel.co.jp/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-012552.htm|http://www.intel.co..../sb/CS-012552.htm]
Today it stayed well below 100, never going past 90 at any point that I checked. But we're also running it with the case open, so that may be a factor. John plans to clean it out completely with compressed air on the weekend, so right now I'm just watching it.
I appreciate all the input.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,125
9/1/04 1:55:50 AM
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Bizarre change
It's almost 1 am, the temperature in the room is about 80, and suddenly the temp in Zone 2 started rising again. I checked on it repeatedly, and it hit 104 before starting back down.
While it was heating up, I felt Zone 2 (I know how now) and it did feel warmer. I can't figure out what was heating it up, all the fans were blowing. Only difference from earlier today when it never went up was the small fan blowing on me and the computer from behind me. It wasn't on tonight.
John joked it was all the copying and pasting into Word I was doing yesterday, cause I did a lot. Surely that wouldn't be the case right? What's weird though, is I was not doing it earlier today, but was doing it now, when the temp went up. Coincidence?
This gets more and more mysterious, I swear.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,189
9/1/04 11:16:19 AM
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Re: Bizarre change
Considering the location, and you say the power supply isn't overly hot; the best that I can come up with is that you're getting a dead air pocket between the side of the PS and the motherboard. Having a room fan blowing on the open computer would get the air flowing through that pocket allowing it to cool better.
Newer power supplys actually have two fans; one on the back side like the traditional units (blowing out), and one underneath the unit pulling air away from the CPU. If you don't have one of these PS units, you might consider getting one. Beyond that, I don't have any ideas.
~~~)-Steven----
"I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country..."
General George S. Patton
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Post #171,957
8/31/04 12:51:13 PM
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Anyway, getting back to Nikolai...
Today he seems fine, temperature doesn't seem to be going much above 88 in Zone 2, where yesterday it was everywhere from 95-118, (with 122 being the alert point).
John wondered if it was an isolated incident, caused by both the temp of the computer and the temperature in the room. I do remember feeling really hotter than usual when the alert sounded, even though I had the A/C on AND a fan blowing on me.
Can that be the case? Could it have hit the danger zone due to that combination and not really have anything wrong?
More and more puzzling.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #171,959
8/31/04 12:52:21 PM
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you wont know until it breaks :-)
These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #172,312
9/1/04 10:59:08 PM
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Tried an experiment...shocked at the results
Okay, we wondered if maybe Nikolai was heating up because I was copying and pasting huge amounts of text from the internet to Word, creating basically 200+ page documents of text.
I spent all day with him on today, temp never went above 90.
I experimented tonight by doing a copy and paste of ONE 200+ page document. First three, temp didn't move much. Then the temperature in Zone 2 went up 2 degrees every capture or so (capturing 30 posts at a time).
In 12 minutes, I created one 226 page Word document, and the temperature had risen from 88-104.
I stopped capturing, temp cooled down rapidly and is now back at 90.
What gives? Someone suggested that it was the RAM heating up, because they said RAM was the main thing used in copying and pasting. Is it really possible that he's only heating up because of this process I've been doing?
I wouldn't have believed it was really archiving my group 30 posts at a time that was causing this, but now I'm starting to believe it really is.
Any thoughts on this? And does it mean something is still wrong, or am I pushing the limits of my computer somehow?
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,314
9/1/04 11:03:29 PM
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Processor usage
Processors get hot when they work hard. My laptop fan comes on when for example playing a video.
Just jack the ranges up in the BIOS. You can't make it commit suicide.
-drl
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Post #172,316
9/1/04 11:07:34 PM
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Re: Processor usage
Thanks Ross :)
We'd rather not jack up the Bioses, instead I'm gonna try the same experiment with a fan blowing at the open computer.
Nice to know I'm almost at the solution though.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,318
9/1/04 11:13:58 PM
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Re: Processor usage
Pardon me, but that's a dumb idea. Make the machine live within its own limits. That's WHY the ranges are adjustable!
Moreover, I would still replace the processor fan AS A MATTER OF COURSE every year for a fast processor. They use these weird little motors that can fibrillate when dust gets in them, and you can't get the dust out by blowing on it.
-drl
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Post #172,320
9/1/04 11:28:10 PM
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Re: Processor usage
I don't even know it's acceptable limits yet, I couldn't even find fan speeds for it.
Bottom line though, I only need to archive 6000 or so more posts, so if this works as a temp solution, I don't see the need for a permanent one unless there is really something wrong.
The entire computer, including all the fans, is only 1 year, 4 months and 1 day old, would you still replace the processor fan if it was that new? Just curious.
I never had this problem till I started copying all this data 30 posts at a time, not even when I stayed online all day.
I'm considering all solutions, and John is too, but right now it seems if I archive the posts with the fan on high aimed at the open computer, it doesn't go as high as quickly. And I can't fix it tonight, so it's a temporary fix, for tonight anyway.
I do appreciate your input, Ross, I just can't make decisions on how to fix it, John does that. And he isn't implementing any serious repairs till he gives it a thorough cleaning on the weekend. We're gonna look into it in more depth then.
I'll pass your opinions to him though. :) Thanks.
Brenda
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,321
9/1/04 11:33:36 PM
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Re: Processor usage
Repeat: Processor fans are cranky - they use a kind of brushless motor that can fibrillate (not spin, just shake) when the bearing gets dusty and resistant to turning.
Repeat: The temperature ranges in the BIOS are such that you CAN'T destroy your processor unless you turn off the sensors completely and use a broken fan. There are these nice guys and gals known as "engineers" who figure this stuff out for you. Blowing on the box with a Walmart fan was never part of their design.
You seem not to understand - the processor is going to get hot when it's stressed by an intensive computing job. So what you need to do is make your computer live with its hot processor AFTER taking the precaution that the processor fan is in good shape. Once a fan has begun fibrillating you CAN'T FIX IT by blowing on it. You need to buy a NEW FAN - it's only 10 bucks fer chrissake!
-drl
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Post #172,323
9/1/04 11:39:58 PM
9/1/04 11:47:48 PM
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Okay, I told him
Repeat: Processor fans are cranky - they use a kind of brushless motor that can fibrillate (not spin, just shake) when the bearing gets dusty and resistant to turning. Okay, John said he plans to check the fans out more this weekend, that's only a day or so away. Edit: John just also told me that to make sure the Processor fan was spinning and not fibrillating, he put his finger in the fan and felt the blade hit his fingernail. He said the blade hit his fingernail and he could tell it was spinning that way. (I knew he did something cause I heard a funny noise and he jerked back, but I hadn't known what he did). Repeat: The temperature ranges in the BIOS are such that you CAN'T destroy your processor unless you turn off the sensors completely and use a broken fan. There are these nice guys and gals known as "engineers" who figure this stuff out for you. Blowing on the box with a Walmart fan was never part of their design. He doesn't know if the BIOS will adjust the fan speeds for him, but he's gonna look into that this weekend too. He said he needs to research into what the safe speeds should be or are, or something like that. You seem not to understand - the processor is going to get hot when it's stressed by an intensive computing job. So what you need to do is make your computer live with its hot processor AFTER taking the precaution that the processor fan is in good shape. Once a fan has begun fibrillating you CAN'T FIX IT by blowing on it. You need to buy a NEW FAN - it's only 10 bucks fer chrissake! I hear you loud and clear, we just can't do it till the weekend, if we determine it needs replacing. so meanwhile, to be careful and get some of the archiving done, I'm using the Walgreens fan to blow on it and keep it a little cooler and archiving one just one file at a time, then letting it rest again before archiving another, so it's cool again. Question: Would a fibrillating fan make a scritchy sound like someone scratching something on metal? My computer makes that noise very intermittently and it sounds like, well, best description I can give you, is it sounds like when my car engine fan blades were scraping against some metal thingy that got bent into the blade path. Is that a sound it might make? What we also want to do is find the speed the fan is set at and SHOULD be running at, and then see if the speed matches what it should be, so we can determine if all the fans are ok, or what ones need replacing. I'm not trying to be stubborn, Ross, like I said, we can't do anything intense to it like that till he's off work and has time to research stuff like temps required and fan speeds. I've looked for some of the info, but I can't seem to find it all. And at least I've determined it only does it while archiving, so I know now not to archive for hours on end without breaks. Brenda Edit: fixed grammar and P.S. John also turned off spell checker and grammar checker and stuff on Word to see if that makes it work a little less harder. I don't want these documents altered by spell check or anything anyway.
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 1, 2004, 11:42:21 PM EDT
Edited by Nightowl
Sept. 1, 2004, 11:47:48 PM EDT
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Post #172,331
9/2/04 12:15:40 AM
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Re: Okay, I told him
(slaps head)
The fibrillation can happen any time, as when -GASP- it gets hot because the processor it's sitting on heats up. If it never happened until now, and knowing the dust situation in St. Louis, I'd immediately suspect the fan and replace it REGARDLESS of other considerations.
-drl
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Post #172,334
9/2/04 12:19:02 AM
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I see
so it wouldn't fibrillate all the time then? It could spin properly sometimes and then not spin properly. Okay, noted.
Would it make that weird scritching sound?
I'll let him know what you said, and I really do appreciate the input.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,335
9/2/04 12:19:36 AM
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Don't know about that
-drl
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Post #172,338
9/2/04 12:23:08 AM
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Clean the crap off the leading edges of the fan blades.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #172,342
9/2/04 12:27:57 AM
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Will do, Peter
We're gonna unhook him and clean him thoroughly this weekend, I'll tell John to clean the blades too. :)
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,328
9/2/04 12:02:51 AM
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You'd be surprised at what makes a CPU get hot.
I had a bizarre situation the other week here at work. Acrobat was hanging partway through a document export on a user's PC. As it progressed through the document - and it was over 200 pages, too - the fan on the CPU could be heard to get louder and louder. By the time it reached it's hang point, the fan was going full-bore. And it stayed that way until the Acrobat process was killed.
(And the problem? Acrobat needs the screen at 1024x768 or higher. Don't know why except that at 800x600, it hangs partway through. Always the same spot, too.)
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #172,329
9/2/04 12:09:14 AM
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2nd experiment, amazing results!
John turned off spell checker and grammar checker on Word.
I archived another 200+ page file, no extra Walgreens fan blowing on the open computer.
Temp in Zone 2 never went above 90.
Wow.....
I know it's still not a permanent fix, but it's good enough for me to feel safe archiving the rest of the group, as long as I take a break between each file.
John said the processes of checking every post and word and grammar was probably what was taking most of the extra the CPU power, and it looks like he was right. And I don't want to alter my group anyway, I want it exactly like it was originally posted, so I need no spell/grammar check on it.
Still gonna give Nikolai a full cleaning and check over on the weekend though.
Thanks for everyone's input, it's nice at least to know what's causing it, and that I have ways to control how hot it gets even temporarily.
Nightowl >8#
"A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop." -- Robert Hughes, Australian Art Critic, Writer
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Post #172,385
9/2/04 9:47:31 AM
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Real world physics intrude in our digital fancies
How dare they! We just got a perfect world going here.
Ashton, vindicated.
--
I love the accent: \ufffdMedicine Square Godden.\ufffd
-- [link|http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/0804/083104.html|James Lileks]
|
