Swift Vet Thurlow hangs tough under fire

Post #170,437 by marlowe 8/20/04 12:08:27 PM Reply	Swift Vet Thurlow hangs tough under fire [link\|http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/article.php?story=20040819100856500\|He won't back down] Excerpt: I am convinced that the language used in my citation for a Bronze Star was language taken directly from John Kerry's report which falsely described the action on the Bay Hap River as action that saw small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks of the river. To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day. I submitted no paperwork for a medal nor did I file an after action report describing the incident. To my knowledge, John Kerry was the only officer who filed a report describing his version of the incidents that occurred on the river that day. It was not until I had left the Navy -- approximately three months after I left the service -- that I was notified that I was to receive a citation for my actions on that day. I believed then as I believe now that I received my Bronze Star for my efforts to rescue the injured crewmen from swift boat number three and to conduct damage control to prevent that boat from sinking. I say: Attacking the messenger works, if the messenger lets it work. Here's one war veteran who doesn't intend to let it work. At least he hasn't received death threats like [link\|http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39755\|Colin McNickle] Remember, folks: [link\|http://qando.net/archives/002160.htm\|Kerry started this]. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/kerry.html#20040820\|Home link] ---------------------------------------------------------------- "All the news you wish would go away" Iraq is free, and there's nothing you can do about it. DEAL WITH IT. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #170,449 by boxley 8/20/04 12:44:58 PM Reply	well sir, produce the report and lets see who signed it. Until then, unless you have been shot at yourself, sit the fuck down and shut up. thanx, bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,539 by marlowe 8/21/04 10:03:02 AM Reply	It's Kerry who's withholding evidence, not me. [link\|http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200408201031.asp\|So sit down and shut the fuck up yerself] Excerpt: An SF 180 autographed by John Kerry will indisputably show that the Navy has disgorged itself of every paper bearing his name. The SF 180 could also free anything still lodged among the Pentagon's papers that a less formal "request" might have missed. What's good for the donkey is good for the elephant: Bush should sign an SF 180, too. The SF 180 can be downloaded at www.vetrecs.archives.gov or faxed on demand via 301-837-0990 (request document 2255). Concerned Americans can generate SF 180s and personally hand them to Senator Kerry as he campaigns. This will give him multiple opportunities to bring a verifiable measure of openness to this issue. I say: This sort of thing should be mandatory for all candidates for high office. Tax returns, too. No privacy for public figures. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "All the news you wish would go away" Iraq is free, and there's nothing you can do about it. DEAL WITH IT. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #170,453 by lincoln 8/20/04 1:03:05 PM Reply	Hey Marlowe - you ought to read this Newly obtained military records of one of Sen. John F. Kerry's most vocal critics, who has accused the Democratic presidential candidate of lying about his wartime record to win medals, contradict his own version of events. In newspaper interviews and a best-selling book, Larry Thurlow, who commanded a Navy Swift boat alongside Kerry in Vietnam, has strongly disputed Kerry's claim that the Massachusetts Democrat's boat came under fire during a mission in Viet Cong-controlled territory on March 13, 1969. Kerry won a Bronze Star for his actions that day. But Thurlow's military records, portions of which were released yesterday to The Washington Post under the Freedom of Information Act, contain several references to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units" of the five-boat flotilla. Thurlow won his own Bronze Star that day, and the citation praises him for providing assistance to a damaged Swift boat "despite enemy bullets flying about him." [...] The Bronze Star recommendations for both Kerry and Thurlow were signed by Lt. Cmdr. George M. Elliott, who received reports on the incident from his base in the Gulf of Thailand. Elliott is a supporter of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and has questioned Kerry's actions in Vietnam. But he has refused repeated requests for an interview after issuing conflicting statements to the Boston Globe about whether Kerry deserved a Silver Star. [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A13267-2004Aug18?language=printer\|source] So, was Thurlow lying then or is he lying now? lincoln "Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #170,537 by marlowe 8/21/04 9:58:00 AM Reply	Hey lincoln, you ought to read the top of the thread. That report was authored by Kerry. Do try to keep up. ---------------------------------------------------------------- "All the news you wish would go away" Iraq is free, and there's nothing you can do about it. DEAL WITH IT. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #170,668 by lincoln 8/22/04 9:03:57 PM Reply	I replied to the Thurlow story and not the Kerry citation you posted. I did keep up - and the question still remains: Did Thurlow lie then or is he lying now? lincoln "Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times [link\|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net\|contact me]
Post #170,684 by boxley 8/23/04 9:30:39 AM Reply	you have proof Kerry authored the report? after action reports are authored by the leader of the squadron, who signed this report? Also something else you probably didnt know, if you see any kind of orifacer with a medal chances are it was bogus, for a grunt to get a medal it takes real heroic action but in them days over there the orificers were writing each other up for shit all the time. thanx bill These miserable swine, having nothing but illusions to live on, marshmallows for the soul in place of good meat, will now stoop to any disgusting level to prevent even those miserable morsels from vanishing into thin air. The country is being destroyed by these stupid, vicious right-wing fanatics, the spiritual brothers of the brownshirts and redstars, collectivists and authoritarians all, who would not know freedom if it bit them on the ass, who spend all their time trying to stamp, bludgeon, and eviscerate the very idea of the individual's right to his own private world. DRL questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #170,541 by Another Scott 8/21/04 10:23:18 AM Reply	But he hasn't presented evidence. Isn't it his responsibility to present evidence for his claims and not poo-poo the evidence that exists? I am convinced ... I can say without a doubt in my mind ... To my knowledge ... I believed then as I believe now ... That's an awfully weak indictment. We're supposed to believe him because he believes these statements? Where's his evidence? For instance, [link\|http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/20/politics/campaign/20swift.html?ei=5006&en=e34a9e1ea32b2dd8&ex=1093665600&partner=ALTAVISTA1&pagewanted=print&position=\|NY Times]: A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of "Unfit for Command." Really marlowe, I'm surprised you're swayed by this stuff. And isn't it silly to be distracted by these arguments about what happend 30+ years ago? What does it have to do with the policies of the next President? "I'm John Kerry and I support rescuing men blown overboard!" :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #170,546 by marlowe 8/21/04 11:12:13 AM Reply	It's an ewewitness account, dude. If that's not good enough for you, maybe the problem is you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Kerry is a liar and he doesn't tolerate fights from others. "All the news you wish would go away" [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #170,548 by Another Scott 8/21/04 11:53:47 AM Reply	Um, let's review. 1) Contemporaneous reports say that they were under fire. 2) Reports 30+ years later say they were not under fire. Without evidence, why should one believe 2 over 1? Cheers, Scott.
Post #170,687 by jb4 8/23/04 9:57:46 AM Reply	And here's another eyewitness account, dude! Found in [link\|http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220342aug22,1,2523679.story?coll=chi-news-hed\|The Chicago Tribune] The interesting part about this is that Rood is a Chicago ribune editor. this Tribune is known as a conservative rag (not a conservative as Fox news, of course, but then, who is?) I'll see your eyewitness account from a sour-grapes axe-to-grind arch conservative, and raise you one eyewitness account, from a conservative newspaper editor. Your move, fuckwit... jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #170,549 by Another Scott 8/21/04 12:14:10 PM Reply	WashPost 8/21/2004: [link\|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html\|Swift Boat Accounts Incomplete And Flawed]: An investigation by The Washington Post into what happened that day suggests that neither side has been entirely forthcoming, and that each has withheld information from the public record. [...] The Post's research shows that both accounts contain significant flaws and factual errors. This reconstruction of the climactic day in Kerry's military career is based on more than two dozen interviews with former crewmates and officers who served with him, as well as research in the Naval Historical Center here, where the Swift boat records are preserved. Kerry himself was the only surviving skipper on the river then who declined a request for an interview. [...] In "Tour of Duty," these thoughts are attributed to a "diary" kept by Kerry. But the endnotes to Brinkley's book say that Kerry "did not keep diaries in these weeks in February and March 1969 when the fighting was most intense." In the acknowledgments to his book, Brinkley suggests that he took at least some of the passages from an unfinished book proposal Kerry prepared some time after November 1971, more than two years after he had returned home from Vietnam. [...] Even if Kerry did write the March 13 after-action report, it seems unlikely that he would have been the source of the information about "enemy bullets" flying around Thurlow. The official witness to those events, according to Thurlow's medal recommendation form, was Radioman 1st Class Robert Lambert, a member of his crew. The Post was unable to trace Lambert before publication of this article. In a telephone interview, the head of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, who commanded all Swift boats in Vietnam, said he believed that Kerry wrote the March 13 after-action report on the basis of numerical identifiers at the top of the form. He later acknowledged that the numbers referred to the Swift boat unit, and not to Kerry personally. "It's not cast-iron, I agree with you," he said. [...] Although Kerry campaign officials insist that they have published Kerry's full military records on their Web site (with the exception of medical records shown briefly to reporters earlier this year), they have not permitted independent access to his original Navy records. A Freedom of Information Act request by The Post for Kerry's records produced six pages of information. A spokesman for the Navy Personnel Command, Mike McClellan, said he was not authorized to release the full file, which consists of at least a hundred pages. [...] Neither side is telling the whole truth. Whoda thunkit. :-( Cheers, Scott.
Post #170,550 by pwhysall 8/21/04 12:24:12 PM Reply	Re: WashPost 8/21/2004: Neither side is telling the whole truth. Whoda thunkit. :-( Ah, but what this means is that John Kerry is a liar who shouldn't be elected, because what America and the world NEEDS is four more years of aggressive military intervention around the world, paid for in American dollars and lives. There quite simply is NO OTHER WAY to ensure that the US citizen is safe as they go about their business. And if this safety means that your phone is tapped, your private electronic communications backdoored by the government, your face is stored in a database, and that you are required to prove who you are just to walk down the street, then I think you'll find that it's a price worth paying. In short, we'll all have to have a lot less freedom in order to have more freedom. So Vote Bush. It's the American thing to do. The voting machine will know that you did, anyway, and that data will be kept for "analysis". Don't do anything un-American, now. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #170,596 by Another Scott 8/21/04 8:41:04 PM Reply	8/20/2004: FactCheck.org This is a project of the Annenberg Public Policy Center of the University of Pittsburg. It evaluates the accuracy of political ads. [link\|http://factcheck.org/printerFriendly.aspx?docid=231\|This] article summarizes what is known about SBVFT and Kerry's medals. It concludes with: At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth. Oh, Magical Trevor, some of us aren't quite so cowed by Big Brother that we think our choice is made for us. ;-) Cheers, Scott.

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