Post #167,463
8/4/04 1:46:36 PM
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Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
[link|http://www.swiftvets.com/|http://www.swiftvets.com/] Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been formed to counter the false "war crimes" charges John Kerry repeatedly made against Vietnam veterans who served in our units and elsewhere, and to accurately portray Kerry's brief tour in Vietnam as a junior grade Lieutenant. We speak from personal experience -- our group includes men who served beside Kerry in combat as well as his commanders. Though we come from different backgrounds and hold varying political opinions, we agree on one thing: John Kerry misrepresented his record and ours in Vietnam and therefore exhibits serious flaws in character and lacks the potential to lead. [link|http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=KerryinVietnam|http://www.swiftvets...ic=KerryinVietnam] John Kerry's service in Vietnam lasted 4 months and 12 days, beginning in November 1968 when he reported to Cam Ranh Bay for a month of training. His abbreviated combat tour ended shortly after he requested a transfer out of Vietnam on March 17, 1969, citing Navy instruction 1300.39 permitting personnel with three Purple Hearts to request reassignment. So far as we are able to determine, Kerry was the only Swift sailor ever to leave Vietnam without completing the standard one-year tour of duty, other than those who were seriously wounded or killed.
It is clear that at least one of Kerry's Purple Heart awards was the result of his own negligence, not enemy fire, and that Kerry went to unusual lengths to obtain the award after being turned down by his own commanding officer.
John Kerry has long insisted that using the three-injury loophole to leave combat early was his own idea, but Kerry's fellow Swift officer Thomas Wright, who served on occasion as the OIC (Officer in Charge) of Kerry's boat group, contradicts that claim. Wright reports that he "had a lot of trouble getting Kerry to follow orders," and that those who worked with Kerry found him "oriented towards his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives." He therefore requested that Kerry be removed from his boat group. After John Kerry qualified for his third Purple Heart, Thomas Wright and two fellow officers informed him of the obscure regulation, and told him to go home. Wright concluded, "We knew how the system worked and we didn\ufffdt want him in Coastal Division 11."
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Post #167,480
8/4/04 3:20:45 PM
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You'll have to do better than that
[link|http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth|http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth]
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It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #167,484
8/4/04 3:33:29 PM
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Miserable swine
-drl
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Post #167,547
8/4/04 11:10:07 PM
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The media blitz has started...
A new TV ad is coming out tomorrow (saw a preview tonight and it's nasty). A book is also coming out and the veterans from the group are going to start hitting the news shows.
I don't think the fact that they got republican help to get started will matter much...
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Post #167,580
8/5/04 7:19:40 AM
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G\ufffdbbels Said That First
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Post #167,815
8/5/04 10:04:08 PM
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Where are you car 54?
What's the next Freeper talking point you want to post that's already benn discredited?
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #167,818
8/5/04 10:27:02 PM
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It was quite timely
Tbe TV ads and book came out today and it's been all over the news.
Did I miss a previous discussion of it here?
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Post #167,662
8/5/04 11:05:33 AM
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This group and it's story . . .
.. were thoroughly discredited by an editorial in the Wall Street Journal this morning (page A11 Sham Charges Against a War Hero). This group is an "arms length" defamation operation run by close friends of Karl Rove in Texas.
The editorial demonstrates that the group is cherry picking particular factoids out of context and arranging them against the evidence. The WSJ, being a strongly Republican leaning operation carries considerable credibility here.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #167,707
8/5/04 1:31:38 PM
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Summary?
Can you give me a summary? I don't have access to the WSJ. This group is an "arms length" defamation operation run by close friends of Karl Rove in Texas. Kind of like a Republican version of MoveOn.org? (Sorry, couldn't resist) The WSJ, being a strongly Republican leaning operation carries considerable credibility here. Al Hunt leans strongly Republican?
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Post #167,812
8/5/04 9:42:15 PM
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Re: Summary?
Can you give me a summary? I don't have access to the WSJ. "They deride his Silver Star, which was pinned on him personally by the commander of U.S. Naval forces in Vietnam, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt; men in his boat say he saved their lives. The Bronze Star was awarded when Lt. John Kerry, wounded, ordered his boat back to pull Army Ranger Jim Rassmann out of the water. All the crewmates on that swift boat that day cite his courage, Yet a TV ad is running this week claiming it's untrue." " . . . want you to believe he faked the first injury, figuring he could get two more Purple Hearts in those treacherous waters - getting wounded, mind you, not killed - and then get out." "Just this week, when a Fox News commentator tried to goad Gen. Tommy Franks, the Bush Iraqui war commander, into attacking Mr. Kerry for those old assertions, this Vietnam veteran, to the consternation of his questioner, made clear that atrocities occurred in Vietnam." Kind of like a Republican version of MoveOn.org? (Sorry, couldn't resist) "This is being significantly funded and directed by Texas fat cats and political operatives who have more than a passing relationship with Bush political guru Karl Rove. These are some of the same people who surreptictiously smeared John McCain in the last election." Al Hunt leans strongly Republican? Well, he's done major writing for the American Enterprise Institute, a "conservative think tank" favored by Ronald Regan. On whole, the WSJ's editorial pages have traditionally been Republican leaning. [link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #167,816
8/5/04 10:13:16 PM
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Wanna bet this will backfire on them...
[link|http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5612836/|MSNBC] Hoffmann said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry\ufffds boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry\ufffds. The group claims that there was no gunfire on the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from a muddy river in the Mekong Delta and that Kerry\ufffds arm was not wounded, as he has claimed. That's an awful minor nitpick when everybody agreed he saved a guys life and pulled him out of the water. The ad makes it worse by making it sound like they think Kerry was lying about the whole incident. Not to smart. Funny thing is, it was MacCain's own ad team that did the spots: The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain\ufffds ads in 2000.
\ufffdI wish they hadn\ufffdt done it,\ufffd McCain said of his former advisers. \ufffdI don\ufffdt know if they knew all the facts.\ufffd
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Post #167,822
8/5/04 10:59:24 PM
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It could
There is a chance that this will backfire if they try to hammer it to hard. The Bush AWOL story is as confirmed as it can get short of Bush admitting to it. Every time a Bush backer attacks Kerry's military history, they also bring Bush's military history into play.
Rove is really good at this sort of thing though. He knows that he can't play this up too much, nor would it be a good idea to hammer it too close to the election. Notice how careful Rove has been to do this second hand. Bush's campaign can not be directly tied to the ads, but I have no doubt that Rove had a hand in their creation.
Jay
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Post #167,824
8/5/04 11:07:15 PM
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Re: It could
Reminds me of a pack of hyenas harassing a full-grown prime male lion while eating. The hyenas nip and circle and harass the lion just enough to piss it off into leaving the carcass for a split second, and then they win.
But, not this time. McCain has spoken. The media are not giving them a free ride. In any case, all the way back in March I had a little scene with an asshole REMF in my tavern, who claimed that Kerry "only got nicked". These people are going to believe whatever they want in any case.
-drl
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Post #167,854
8/6/04 10:22:49 AM
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Bad analogy
In at least parts of Africa it's the hyenas that make the kills - then the lions move in and chase them off. Lions are big and strong enough to steal the property of others without fear of justice, so they are held in high regard by humans and the hard working hyenas are despised.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #167,856
8/6/04 10:47:26 AM
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Right! :)
-drl
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Post #167,820
8/5/04 10:50:27 PM
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Re: Summary?
I have the very strong feeling that this kind of open grousing about decorations is the worst kind of chickenshit maneuver that a serviceman can pull.
One of these cocksuckers was on cable news tonight - opposed by the very person Kerry fished from the water to win his Silver Star. The latter had a look in his eye that told the real story.
-drl
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Post #167,695
8/5/04 12:39:10 PM
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McCain condems Swiftboats
[link|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/08/05/politics1020EDT0544.DTL&type=printable|LA Times] Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.
"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush. McCain is playing a subtle game here, attacking the Bush campaign for these adds while not directly attacking the president or the party. I guessing he is setting himself up to run in 2008, and thus doesn't want to attack the party too much. Jay
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Post #167,697
8/5/04 12:50:13 PM
8/5/04 12:51:36 PM
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He's very shrewd
Marc Antony type. Wants to steer Republicans back toward Goldwaterism without fractionating the party. You can be sure he holds the entire Shrub clan in utter contempt.
-drl
Edited by deSitter
Aug. 5, 2004, 12:51:36 PM EDT
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Post #167,817
8/5/04 10:24:24 PM
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Curiouser and curiouser
Kerry also received a Silver Star for valor in combat and two other Purple Hearts during his service on the swift boats in Vietnam.
Larry Thurlow, a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who appears in the ad, told CNN that Kerry's boat fled from a mine blast that damaged another vessel in a March 1969 incident for Kerry won the Bronze Star.
"Our boats immediately put automatic weapons fire onto the left bank in case there was an ambush in conjunction with the mine," said Thurlow, a Navy officer in a nearby boat at the time. "It soon became apparent there was no ambush." [link|http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.veterans/index.html| All Politics ] yet from [link|http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index1.html| this source ].... Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-53 over by this time, and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was a shambles, but they were still shooting too hard to assess the damage. "Someone on the fantail must have noticed Jim swimming in back of us, ducking against the fire that was trying to pick him off because I suddenly heard the yell of 'man overboard' and looked back to see the bullets splashing in the water beside him," Kerry reported. "We turned around with the engines screaming against each other -- one full astern, the other full forward -- and then charged the several hundred yards back into the ambush where Jim was trying to find some cover. Everyone on board must have been firing without pause to keep the sniper heads down." [link|http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index2.html| Page 2 ] Kerry and the other wounded men received medical attention aboard a Coast Guard cutter, which was the closest ship capable of treating them. Along with a third Purple Heart for the injury to his right arm, Kerry was also awarded a Bronze Star for his bravery, as was Larry Thurlow. [link|http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index3.html| Page 3 ] hmm....no ambush? But if Kerry didn't deserve a bronze star....did Thurlow deserve one?
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Post #167,870
8/6/04 11:51:41 AM
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And the hits keep on a'coming.
But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book.
[link|http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry/| Source ]
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Post #167,899
8/6/04 1:39:55 PM
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If you continue reading...
Elliott, asked about the contradiction between his recommendation and his new questioning of Kerry's third Purple Heart, responded, ''It makes me look kind of silly, to be perfectly honest."
But he said: ''I simply have no reason for these guys to be lying, and if they are lying in concert, it is one hell of a conspiracy. So, on the basis of all of the information that has come out, I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand." [link|http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry?pg=3|Source]
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Post #167,912
8/6/04 2:05:42 PM
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And, if you read even farther . .
. . you find Rassmann, the one unimpeachable eyewitness to his own rescue and the events surrounding it, supports Kerry in all details.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #167,913
8/6/04 2:06:22 PM
8/6/04 2:07:20 PM
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Oooops - accidental double post
. . you find Rassmann, the one unimpeachable eyewitness to his own rescue and the events surrounding it, supports Kerry in all details.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #168,181
8/8/04 7:20:56 PM
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Don't count your hits too soon.
[link|http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html|Boston Globe got it wrong]
----------------------------------------------------------------
"All the news you wish would go away"
Iraq is free, and there's nothing you can do about it. DEAL WITH IT.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #167,825
8/5/04 11:37:54 PM
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It's too smarmy for my taste.
I think there's little to the accusations in your excerpts and the ones I've read elsewhere.
Compare [link|http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp|Snopes] take and Drudge's [link|http://www.drudgereport.com/ufd1.htm|excerpts]. There's a lot less loaded language in the Snopes account, and a lot more objective facts.
It seems to me that if there were substance to these accusations, it wouldn't have taken 35 years for them to come out. Kerry's run for office many times - surely opponents were looking for any advantage and would have jumped at the opportunity to find things to discredit him. Even Nixon was trying to dig up dirt on him, for crying out loud.
Whether or not Rove or other elements of the White House are behind this group, this group presents a very poor case. It's sad that we've returned to this type of gutter politics rather than discussing the important issues that the next president is going to face in the next 4 years.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #167,842
8/6/04 8:03:39 AM
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Gutter Politics
It's sad that we've returned to this type of gutter politics rather than discussing the important issues that the next president is going to face in the next 4 years. If you haven't noticed, there's this group called MoveOn.org that has been doing this to Bush for the past few months already. The Republicans are quite late to this party. Now if Bush is smart, he will condem this ad and call on Kerry to condem the liberal 527 groups who are making attack ads also...
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Post #167,846
8/6/04 8:33:19 AM
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Re: Gutter Politics
It's not in the worldview of leftists (and MoveOn are not leftists, they are traditional liberals) to indulge in smear tactics. Shrub is guilty as sin, of all the things claimed by them.
Like it or not, rightists are more interested in power than in justice, and will do anything to get it, depending on how far over they peg the tyrannometer.
-drl
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Post #167,904
8/6/04 1:54:14 PM
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Blatant Double Standard
So it's ok for a well funded liberal group to run nasty personal attack ads against Bush, but it's gutter politics when a small group of veterans gets some money from a Republican contributer and runs a nasty personal attack ad against Kerry? It's not in the worldview of leftists (and MoveOn are not leftists, they are traditional liberals) to indulge in smear tactics. Shrub is guilty as sin, of all the things claimed by them. I'm guessing few on this board will see that as a double standard.
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Post #167,906
8/6/04 1:56:04 PM
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Just starting to notice this, eh? ;-)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #167,925
8/6/04 2:54:54 PM
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As someone who fails to see the double-standard...
How is telling the truth about one person equivalent to lying about the other?
It is true that if the Florida election was fair, Bush would not have been elected. But he was declared elected by a margin of 5-4 in the Supreme Court (with 2 of the 5 having ties to the candidate that in many eyes meant that they should have recused themselves). And now under Bush's watch the job scene went to shit (not entirely his fault), the deficit skyrocketed (some his fault, some not), our level of international support has gone to crap, and we're now committed to a disasterous situation in Iraq. I could add more well-known things in his personal history.
By contrast it is a lie that Kerry did not earn the recognition that he got in Vietnam. (Whether that means that he would make a good president is another story...)
Now if you want to be unhappy with Kerry, and tell the truth, I'll respect that. Like [link|http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=354&row=1|http://www.gregpalas...m?artid=354&row=1] does. But if you want to say that nasty lies are equivalent to nasty truths, then I can't respect that.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,926
8/6/04 2:58:53 PM
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now now show me the ruling
of the USC that states
"we declare candidate bush to be the elected winner of florida" Bork Bork Bork :-)
thanx,
bill
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #167,928
8/6/04 3:13:34 PM
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You know as well as I
that no ruling used those words. But the net effect of the rulings at [link|http://www.flcourts.org/pubinfo/election/|http://www.flcourts....pubinfo/election/] was the same.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,930
8/6/04 3:29:22 PM
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Let me quote from the ruling
[link|http://www.flcourts.org/pubinfo/election/12-22-2000/SC00-2431-remand.pdf|http://www.flcourts....0-2431-remand.pdf] Moreover, upon reflection, we conclude that the development of a specific, uniform standard
necessary to ensure equal application and to secure the fundamental right to vote
throughout the State of Florida should be left to the body we believe best equipped
to study and address it, the Legislature. punted to the group which was ready to appoint repo electors to estableh "state wide" rules for manual counts so for every vague scratch for Gore in west palm wasnt counterbalanced by two votes from the panhandle which a palmist held to her head and declared Bush. thanx, bill "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #167,947
8/6/04 4:09:27 PM
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As I said, the net effect was the same
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,955
8/6/04 5:06:07 PM
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Actually.
If they would have stayed out of it and done as Gore had asked or even as ordered by the FL SC, Bush would have won.
Gore request for recounts of all ballots in Broward, Miami-Dade, Palm Beach and Volusia counties
Result: Bush by 225
Florida Supreme Court of all undervotes statewide
Result:\tBush by 430
[link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election,_2000#The_Florida_Ballot_Project_recounts|source]
So, could we please, once and for all, get over it already? According to any standard that would have been used IRREGARDLESS of the USSC, Gore would have lost FL and thus the election.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #167,959
8/6/04 5:19:05 PM
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Nit: Your choice:Regardless or Irrespective. Not both. ;-)
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Post #167,963
8/6/04 6:01:49 PM
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Actually, not
[link|http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?011224ta_talk_hertzberg|http://www.newyorker...ta_talk_hertzberg]
If the recount had gone forward as planned and only counted undervotes, then Bush would have won. If the recount had gone forward as planned and also counted overvotes (as many believe was likely) then Gore would have won. Both by small margins.
If the infamous scrub list had not happened, or if its effects were estimated, Gore would have won by much nicer margins.
If the punchcard machines all were set to tell all voters when they had a spoiled ballot, or all were set to not tell voters that (rather than having them set, precinct by precinct, according to how that precinct is likely to vote), then Gore would have won by an estimated 200,000 votes.
But, I can hear you say, it's only democracy. Why bother getting heated up about it?
To which I have to point out that George Bush fully agrees with you. As he pointed out, his life would be much easier if he was a dictator. He certainly doesn't seem to believe in listening to people!
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,964
8/6/04 6:43:56 PM
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There were 2 rulings.
One the asked for recount in 4 counties.
The other the FL SC decision.
Both would have resulted in the same Bush victory.
Any OTHER scenario is changing the rules in place. The scrub list was ignored in 20 counties...allowing 8000 votes that should not have been cast, which would likely offset those incorrectly on the list.
Ballot reject mechanisms and other tabulation issues are problems, yes.
But unless you subscribe to some farreaching conspiricy that knew, in advance, that FL would determine the entire election, then playing the game of "if there wouldn't have this or that" is basically disingenuous.
It didn't go according to the "rules"...agreed. But if it had the results would have been the same according to the rules in place at the time. (ie..if the Feds would have done the correct thing and not ruled at all)
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #167,967
8/6/04 7:06:16 PM
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Timeout everyone. Thread starting with #17834.
[link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=17834|#17834], and the replies there.
I think we've beaten this horse pretty well dead.
Several times.
:-)
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #167,969
8/6/04 7:35:39 PM
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And I, respectfully, disagree
My latest post in this thread said a lot of things that I don't recall having been said in past threads. In particular I added material on how the recount would have progressed which was not public knowledge when the previous thread that you pointed out came up. Material that changes the outcome.
Furthermore I believe that we haven't hit a point of deadlock on this issue. If we do, I'll exit. But right now Bill and I appear to be having constructive dialogue. We've been known to do that - even on things that we disagree deeply about.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,970
8/6/04 7:39:31 PM
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Sorry. A preemptive strike based on faulty intelligence. :)
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Post #168,005
8/6/04 10:09:39 PM
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I got a stars and bars that disagrees wit you
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #167,968
8/6/04 7:31:07 PM
8/6/04 9:29:39 PM
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Please recheck those facts
The FL SC decision would have done the recount under the direction of district judge Terry Lewis. In interviews afterwards, which are backed up by documentation at the time, Terry Lewis claims that he would have counted both overvotes and undervotes. If he had done that, then Gore would have won.
That was a significant oversight on the part of the newspaper articles which claimed that, had the recount gone forward as planned, Bush would have still won. They were mistaken about what was actually planned.
You would have known this if you had read the link that I provided. In fact I suspect that you did know part of this based on how precisely you stated your claim.
Now your claim of 8000 votes being case that should not have been cast is kind of interesting. Let's review, shall we? There were 57,700 "ex-felons" on the list. The one county that checked each of the 694 names on its local list could verify only 34 as actual felony convicts. Which suggests that about 95% of the people on the list should not have been. If that rate held for the rest of the list, then that list had fewer than 3000 real felons on it. Not all of whom would have voted. (Probably about half.)
So where did your 8000 votes that should not have been cast come from? Were they 8000 people who you're counting as guilty because they were on that scrub list? (A scrub list which Florida was successfully sued about.) If the rate remained at the dismal success that it had when spot checked, only 400 people "wrongly" voted (in many states they would have had the right to vote, but I digress). 400 excess votes hardly offsets tens of thousands of people wrongly denied the vote. Tens of thousands of people who are disproportionately black and therefore disproportionately Democratic.
While I agree that the excess votes offsets the excess scrubs, the relative magnitudes of the numbers makes the offsetting pretty negligable.
As for your comments about a "farreaching conspiracy", nice ad hominem. No wild-eyed accusations are being made. The claim is not that Bush planned on Florida being the key, it is that Florida was a mess and Florida was the mess that was looked at in the most detail. Both parties attempt to manipulate the system. The Democrats are hardly clean (in fact seeing a Daley lecture on fair voting was one of the best ironies in 2000). However in recent the Republicans have been willing to get a lot dirtier than the Democrats, with an unfortunate amount of success.
No, they didn't just manipulate Florida. Several other states had messes in 2000 as well, Florida is just the one that got a spectacular amount of press due to a perfect combination of issues. For instance when I pointed out the (successful) attempt to systematically manipulate ballot spoilage to the advantage of the Republicans, the estimate that I have seen is 200,000 black votes lost in Florida. But that wasn't just happening in Florida, nationwide that manipulation is estimated at 2,000,000 votes.
Now let me cut you off before you jump up and down and say that I'm claiming a Republican conspiracy. In fact I am claiming a Republican conspiracy. The question is whether I'm claiming an unreasonable conspiracy. I submit that any fair look at the history of US elections (yes, including Chicago in 1960) will show that the kind of manipulations that I am talking about are hardly unprecedented. We have a two party system, and whichever party is in power attempts to maintain that power. They do it by changing rules, bending rules, breaking rules, selectively enforcing rules..you name it, they've done it. Both sides.
But it is something that the American people as a whole have historically had little sympathy for. Our collective unwillingness to accept "political manipulation as usual" is the biggest check out there on attempts to manipulate politics. When it comes to that question, I know what side I'm for. I'd hope that somewhere deep inside you feel the same way.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Edited by ben_tilly
Aug. 6, 2004, 09:28:18 PM EDT
Edited by ben_tilly
Aug. 6, 2004, 09:29:39 PM EDT
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Post #168,006
8/6/04 10:14:23 PM
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Agree on several fronts.
One of them being that this is a very dead horse.
However, the FL SC ordered the manual recount of >undervotes<. This was specified in the rulings. In interviews later he can say all he wants...he would have been going beyond his court ordered mandate and likely would have been challenged and overruled.
Actually my 8000 number was pulled incorrectly. The actual issue is that the felon list was ignored in 20 counties, I don't have a list of which those were.
I've also seen [link|http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a41f7e24141.htm|stories] that don't lend alot of creedence to the validity of the vote in Philadelphia and other cities, where there are more registered voters than eligible voters and quite a few precincts reported 100% turnout (pretty neat, more votes than eligible voters). So swing states such as PA could have gone Rep without this type of corruption.
So we both are making the point from different sides, that by now we, the people, should have figured out a way to keep this crap from happening in our electoral process. I, however, think that the public is overwhelmingly apathetic to this..which is why in this day and age we still have chads on ballots.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,017
8/6/04 10:56:46 PM
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I think that we've reached agreement
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #168,008
8/6/04 10:16:56 PM
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without them the Florida Legislature had a large majority
ready to select electors directly which could not be challenged in state court only federal and the constitution sez as ashton likes to put it cha cha cha. Now if that happened the US house could have tossed the electors which would have had the New Mexico electors tossed for sinilar reasons. This would throw the election into the federal house and would hace resulted in a Bush victory anyway. I wish the USSC had stayed out which would have let the constitution do its work, it would have made the country stronger and the people who dont understand politics would finally get a clue about checks and balances.
thanx,
bill
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #168,016
8/6/04 10:55:23 PM
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You may well be right
But I still stand by my original claim that if the election was fair, that Gore would have taken Florida.
Cheers,
Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act
- [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #167,932
8/6/04 3:34:09 PM
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Re: Blatant Double Standard
Bush is a self-standing hateful person. Kerry is not.
-drl
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Post #167,957
8/6/04 5:09:20 PM
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As determined by years of personal knowledge, yes?
Never met either one...so I wouldn't know.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,056
8/7/04 2:46:40 AM
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No, probably not........ best wait for mathematical proof.
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Post #167,974
8/6/04 8:13:34 PM
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Not hateful. Just sick.
Fortunately, he's on medication for that now. President George W. Bush is taking powerful anti-depressant drugs to control his erratic behavior, depression and paranoia, Capitol Hill Blue has learned.
The prescription drugs, administered by Col. Richard J. Tubb, the White House physician, can impair the President\ufffds mental faculties and decrease both his physical capabilities and his ability to respond to a crisis, administration aides admit privately.
\ufffdIt\ufffds a double-edged sword,\ufffd says one aide. \ufffdWe can\ufffdt have him flying off the handle at the slightest provocation but we also need a President who is alert mentally.\ufffd
Angry Bush walked away from reporter's questions.
Tubb prescribed the anti-depressants after a clearly-upset Bush stormed off stage on July 8, refusing to answer reporters' questions about his relationship with indicted Enron executive Kenneth J. Lay.
\ufffdKeep those motherfuckers away from me,\ufffd he screamed at an aide backstage. \ufffdIf you can\ufffdt, I\ufffdll find someone who can.\ufffd [link|http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/printer_4921.shtml|http://www.capitolhi...rinter_4921.shtml] bcnu,
Mikem
If you can read this, you are not the President.
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Post #168,010
8/6/04 10:19:39 PM
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ROfl reminds me of skank and Bill
Stupid Motherfucker, fuckin bitch!! on the way to the inaugeration
thanx.
bill
"delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #168,034
8/7/04 1:02:35 AM
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I don't agree
He's hateful. He doesn't like living things.
-drl
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Post #168,039
8/7/04 1:08:54 AM
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And I bet he kicks his dog, too!
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #168,052
8/7/04 2:24:42 AM
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Re: And I bet he kicks his dog, too!
He was cold blooded while people in Texas were executed.
Before this war.
-drl
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Post #168,057
8/7/04 2:52:55 AM
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Yep, remember - thought those prolly exaggeration.
Figured.. not even the 'Governor' of the State which won't let their Governor even change the garbage pickup days.. couldn't have put together those disgusting phrases and actually Said them, too.
They weren't exaggerations.. They were fucking Exact Quotes.
Heydrich was at least honest. Well, about unswerving self-interest.
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Post #167,847
8/6/04 8:41:05 AM
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I was thinking along the lines of Jefferson vs Adams in 1800
[link|http://www.multied.com/elections/1800.html|The Election of 1800]. The election campaign of 1800 was a partial reply of the campaign of 1796 with the Jeffersonians opposing Federalist policies. The attacks of the Jeffersonians were somewhat muted by the Sedition Act. The attack of the Federalists on the Jeffersonians were not similarly muted. As a result, Federalist newspapers claimed that the election of Jefferson would cause the "teaching of "murder robbery, rape, adultery and incest". See the similarity? :-( Cheers, Scott.
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Post #167,900
8/6/04 1:44:14 PM
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Sounds like a MoveOn.org ad
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Post #168,023
8/7/04 12:13:46 AM
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Karl. Rove. Alone___makes move-on look like the DAR.
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Post #167,867
8/6/04 11:48:14 AM
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Minor nit
If you haven't noticed, there's this group called MoveOn.org that has been doing this to Bush for the past few months already. The Republicans are quite late to this party.
Ahem, Republican were doing this all during the Clinton years.
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Post #167,939
8/6/04 3:50:13 PM
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Nixon wasn't as good at manufacturing...
.,.bullshit as this current group of miscreants
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #167,876
8/6/04 12:09:12 PM
8/6/04 12:10:39 PM
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Free Republic ties to SBVFT
[link|http://bartcopnation.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=2&topic_id=307791|Bartcop] forum folks have done a bit of internet sleuthing. Found some interesting tidbits.
(edit: fearsome abbreviation skillz)
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
Edited by Silverlock
Aug. 6, 2004, 12:10:39 PM EDT
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