Promised myself I'd stay out of this, but ...

Post #167,045 by drewk 8/1/04 10:08:21 PM Reply	Promised myself I'd stay out of this, but ... I couldn't get past this one: Are you taking it all the way back to the Bible? If that is the case, then the first real Christians were probably Adam and Eve at first, weren't they? And then Noah, respectively? Then the Jewish people who at times were enslaved. How could they have been Christians before Christ was born? I mean it's only the very definition of "Christian" that one be a follower of Christ. Wow. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #167,048 by Nightowl 8/1/04 10:19:04 PM Reply	Re: Promised myself I'd stay out of this, but ... I couldn't get past this one: Are you taking it all the way back to the Bible? If that is the case, then the first real Christians were probably Adam and Eve at first, weren't they? And then Noah, respectively? Then the Jewish people who at times were enslaved. How could they have been Christians before Christ was born? I mean it's only the very definition of "Christian" that one be a follower of Christ. Wow. You're right Drew. I was thinking of God and Christ being the same, which is drilled into us all the time, but you're right. Okay, in that case then, who was enslaved when Christ came around and was preaching? I don't remember the Jews being enslaved by the Romans, just under their rule? Is that the same thing? the other confusing thing is that many Christians see the "birth" of religion" as the Garden of Eden and the Noah age, but that wouldn't be the birth of Christianity, so I see the confusion there. I never quite was able to grasp that God and Christ and the Spirit are all the same anyway, so it's confusing. Thanks for correcting that. :) Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,053 by drewk 8/1/04 10:37:36 PM Reply	Do you realize that's why so many people hate Christians? I was thinking of God and Christ being the same, which is drilled into us all the time, but you're right. You just said, in so many words, "If you're not worshipping Christ you're not worshipping God." Well no, not when you actually think about it for the three seconds after having it pointed out to you. But by tomorrow you'll be evaluating the world based on that firmly held belief all over again. Wait, scratch the subject line. That's why people hate anyone who says the same of their God. Christians aren't the only ones who think they have a lock on the One True Kahuna. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #167,056 by Nightowl 8/1/04 10:49:31 PM Reply	I didn't say that. I was thinking of God and Christ being the same, which is drilled into us all the time, but you're right. You just said, in so many words, "If you're not worshipping Christ you're not worshipping God." Well no, not when you actually think about it for the three seconds after having it pointed out to you. But by tomorrow you'll be evaluating the world based on that firmly held belief all over again. Nope, I didn't say that at all. I said I was thinking of the three-in-one trinity thing which confused me about when Christianity started because Christ hadn't been introduced to people yet, but supposedly existed. I didn't say if you aren't worshipping Christ, you're not worshipping God, you did. I said I was confusing the two. And no, I won't be reevaluating anything, and I don't consider what you said a firmly held belief of mine, because it's too confusing. I accept it is said, and that I don't understand it and that's it. Wait, scratch the subject line. That's why people hate anyone who says the same of their God. Christians aren't the only ones who think they have a lock on the One True Kahuna. I didn't say anything to hate that I can figure. I said I was confusing God and Christ as the same thing because religion confuses us with the trinity. Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,147 by Nightowl 8/2/04 1:35:05 PM Reply	Thought of something else late last night ...You just said, in so many words, "If you're not worshipping Christ you're not worshipping God... I couldn't have said that anyway, because it's not true. The Catholics worship God but don't worship Christ, (if I remember correctly), and just because they aren't worshipping Christ doesn't make them not worship God. Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,148 by boxley 8/2/04 1:39:04 PM Reply	dont know much about catholics either I see [link\|http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.apost.proofs.html\|http://www.iclnet.or...apost.proofs.html] apostolic creed, the baseline beleif recited at every mass thanx, bill "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,149 by Nightowl 8/2/04 1:40:13 PM 8/2/04 1:41:21 PM Reply	Weird I thought the Catholics believed Jesus was just a man, Mary's son, or was that the Jews? I'm probably mixed up. My point is though, that some religions don't recognize Jesus as the Christ, but they worship God, so the only point I'm trying to make regardless of what group it is, is that it is possible to worship only God without additionally worshipping Christ. Thanks, Box. Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon. Edited by Nightowl Aug. 2, 2004, 01:41:21 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #167,151 by hnick 8/2/04 1:52:05 PM Reply	Islam? I think that they consider Jesus to be a prophet and $DIETY = Allah. Since Christianity is derived from Judaism, I doubt that they would have a position on Jesus. Catholicism and its derivitives all recognize Christ as far as I know. My knowledge is less than encyclopedic...
Post #167,152 by pwhysall 8/2/04 1:53:24 PM Reply	Jesus == Isa. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Blog]
Post #167,156 by boxley 8/2/04 2:08:22 PM Reply	Isa what? "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,157 by hnick 8/2/04 2:20:54 PM Reply	Miracle worker more or less.
Post #167,169 by ChrisR 8/2/04 3:44:35 PM Reply	Nicene creed is the usual one. [link\|http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/creed.nicene.txt\|Nicene Creed] is the normal recital at mass, though at times (based on the Calendar) the Apostolic Creed is used instead.
Post #167,170 by boxley 8/2/04 3:48:34 PM Reply	guess which calendar days I go? (Im not Catholic :)) "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,171 by ChrisR 8/2/04 3:54:46 PM 8/2/04 3:56:08 PM Reply	Permanently stuck on Mardis Gras? Or fat tuesday? :-) Oh, and I think the answer is Easter. (Note: going to Catholic schools for 13 years, I should know this... but obviously don't). :-) Edited by ChrisR Aug. 2, 2004, 03:56:08 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #167,174 by boxley 8/2/04 4:03:00 PM Reply	both times, easter and christmas "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,175 by ChrisR 8/2/04 4:09:49 PM Reply	The two longest vigils of the year. Unless you count the wedding and funeral masses. :-)
Post #167,182 by boxley 8/2/04 5:32:43 PM Reply	I enjoy them both My children are born ins, which is why I go. My wife was brought up very strictly, so hates going except for those 2 occasions. thanx, bill "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,535 by orion 8/4/04 9:05:46 PM Reply	Or for the New Age Christians The Buddy Christ (From Jay and Silent Bob movies): [link\|http://shop.store.yahoo.com/jsbstash/budchrisdass1.html\|http://shop.store.ya...udchrisdass1.html] The New Age Christian creed is "How much stuff can I get away with and still get into Heaven? Christ is my buddy, and will let me into the back door of Heaven if need be." ;) *"When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in confederacy against him." - Jonathan Swift* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].
Post #167,130 by boxley 8/2/04 11:36:37 AM Reply	note on romans, slaves etc Owl, there was roman citizens, freemen (who had no rights against a roman citizen) and slaves(owned by all/any of the former 2) slaves were created by conquest and debt.(you owe you get sold) police actions can get you into slavery. Kids of slaves are slaves. You could buy yourself out of slavery. During the second diaspora The romans determined to solve the jewish problem once and for all destroyed the temple, enslaved everyone they could catch (rather desultrily) and shipped them back to rome. In this group were early christians (remember that only Jews could become christians until the apostle paul came and changed all the rules, different rant) so the christians were indeed slaves in behavior and outlook the point of Andrew's comment. thanx, bill "delayed incessantly by people whose prevalent qualification was an excess of free-time" Philip Atkinson questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #167,135 by Nightowl 8/2/04 12:23:37 PM Reply	That's what I was thinking During the second diaspora The romans determined to solve the jewish problem once and for all destroyed the temple, enslaved everyone they could catch (rather desultrily) and shipped them back to rome. In this group were early christians (remember that only Jews could become christians until the apostle paul came and changed all the rules, different rant) so the christians were indeed slaves in behavior and outlook the point of Andrew's comment. I was thinking we had different views of "slavery". I viewed a slave as unable to travel or move around the country, and most of the early apostles were able to do that, so that was part of my confusion. Thanks for explaining that. Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,079 by Andrew Grygus 8/2/04 1:00:32 AM Reply	Actually, there were Christians before Christ. Remember, that's properly "The Christ". There were sects in Israel/Palestine/WhateverHaveYou well before the (totally unproven) birth of "Jesus The Christ" who described themselves as "Christians". This was a time of tremendous social and religious termoil and the religion that became Christianity was a past-up of various ideas that were going around at the tiem. There is no actual evidence of a historical Jesus in any way that hasn't been shown to be a forgery. Roman historians who railed against the Christians do not mention this Jesus person at all. The Jesus story seems not to appear until around 100 years after the "the birth of Christ". For certain the dates don't make sense because Roman tax time was logically in the spring, as it still is today, and there is no record of any need to travel to ones birthplace "to be counted", or, in fact, of any count at all (and examination of the court records of Pontius Pilate showed no evidence of the crusifixion). This does not in any way invalidate the religion or its teachings. In the custom of the time the actual existance of Jesus as a living person would have been completely irrelevant. Remember, these were Pagan times, and gods and godesses were not actual (and not worshiped), they were personifications of natural and social forces, personifications that allowed relationships between forces to be stated in human terms understandable to people without formal education. Therefore the actual historical existance of Jesus "The Christ" is entirely irrelevant. Worrying about this is an artifact of our current literally minded era. It simply doesn't matter. So yes, there were Christians well before the "birth of 'The Christ'". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #167,081 by Nightowl 8/2/04 1:04:08 AM Reply	Very curious then Fasinating... Then what did the word christ mean? Do you know where it came from or who derived its meaning? Nightowl >8# Note to self: Find new signature soon.
Post #167,083 by Andrew Grygus 8/2/04 1:24:23 AM Reply	The Buddha The enlightened one, he who shows the way. Osirus, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, all the same and many more. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #167,111 by JayMehaffey 8/2/04 10:11:01 AM Reply	Speaking literally Speaking literally Jesus Christ is very likely a title and not a name at all. Christ comes the Hebrew "meshiach" and means annointed one. It orginally refered to the holy fluids used to mark a king or priest. But it came to mean anybody selected for a high office or chosen by God. This much is widely known among Christians. What isn't so widely known is that Jesus is also possibly not a real name. Jesus is "yeshua" in the Hebrew, it means "Jehovah saves" or "Jehovah is salvation." This means that both Jesus Christs first and last names are variations of messiah. Jay
Post #167,084 by deSitter 8/2/04 1:40:56 AM Reply	Mithris + Zoroaster -drl
Post #167,094 by Ashton 8/2/04 6:17:12 AM Reply	Another synonym: Avatar Like all the other Christian-recycled paraphernalia, from crucifixion to Virgin (ie Spiritual) Birth - nada to do with hymens and tiresome Puritan stuff. 'The Christ' is a retread of an ancient appelation, signifying a 'Realized Being' [One realizing.. the dimensions of the BS pile of daily superstitions]. (Apparently we hear of very few of such - most are said to say, "Aha!" then shut up and just Live; no corp contracts, seminars or soap boxes. How un-meeja of them.)
Post #167,224 by orion 8/3/04 2:17:06 AM Reply	Shall we look at Wikipedia? [link\|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ\|http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Jesus_Christ] Christ is a title, not his name. It means the anointed one, or The Messiah. Those who worship or believe that a Messiah may arrive may have used this title before to describe him. So it is possible that people worshiped a Christ, a title given to a man to be called The Messiah. The followers of Jesus used the title of Christ to describe him. IIRC the religion was originally called "The Way". Be sure to look at all the different views people have of Jesus. Yes Peter is correct in saying Jesus is also known as Isa to the Muslims. *"What's the use of saving life when you see what you do with it?" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"* [link\|http://www.xormad.com:4096/district268\|I am from District 268].
Post #167,145 by FuManChu 8/2/04 1:28:22 PM Reply	Because they were looking forward to the promise At least that's how the writer of "Hebrews" describes it (chap 11, heavily elided): "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for...[Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Abraham:] All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. [also Joseph, Moses, Israel's armies, Rahab and] Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated--the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us* so that only together with us would they be made perfect." * Given the context of preceding chapters, "us" refers to Christians after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

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