Hmmm.... We could build a business model on this.....

Post #16,327 by hnick 11/3/01 8:54:41 AM Reply	Hmmm.... We could build a business model on this..... If I understand the principle correctly, "antitrust violations don't warrant punishment, just remedies". So then, the model we can pursue is: 1) Leverage the huge mass of capital derived from previous antitrust violations to implement even more egregious violations thus increasing our hegemony. 2) When caught on the current antitrust violations, deny emphatically, and increase efforts on expanding the current project series. This allows us to fall back to the state of business where we were when we were finally caught on the current project, if a remedy says we have to give something back. If dragged out for some years, this allows us to maybe split the difference and fall back to a position of where we are a couple years after being caught. 3) Ignore the remedies. Deny accusations blindly. Claim misunderstandings (by others, of course). Buy political hacks. Try for sympathy due to jealousy. Suck up to CEOs, CFOs, and other PHBs who can sympathize with having the peasant masses trying to pull down their betters. 4) Consider remedies. Create new thread implementing stage 1 with a slightly different project, claiming that this is a self imposed remedy. Create a new thread implementing stage 1 with a different business scope (entertainment, security systems, communications supplier, ect.). Loop to 1. (note that new similar thread can be re-organized back into a single thread for efficiency if the prey^Wcustomers don\ufffdt bitch to DOJ.) Not too shabby. Could make a buck or two out of this. And it is good for the economy. Really. Trust us on this. Nah, not really. Nobody could be that cynical, could they? Nobody could have a DOJ that spineless, could they? I probably just need a couple beers out by the lake, away from this nonsense for a day or so. Later, Hugh
Post #16,333 by Squidley 11/3/01 9:25:46 AM Reply	Re: Hmmm.... We could build a business model on this..... Look, all I'm saying is that antitrust law apparently isn't enough to crush Microsoft the way some people here wanted them crushed. Now, I certainly don't know what the right thing is. Perhaps we need some new laws? Perhaps those who are thirsty for Microsoft's blood just need a good dose of reality?
Post #16,345 by hnick 11/3/01 11:20:03 AM Reply	On laws, reality, and perspective... antitrust law apparently isn't enough to crush Microsoft the way some people here wanted them crushed Hmmm... lessee now... There ARE antitrust laws to protect against behavior such as MS's. MS HAS been found guilty. This is a country where evading a few grand in taxes gets a stiffer jail term than killing somebody in a fit of drunken rage. MS business scams are in the billions of dollars; there should be punishment, if only for the poor slobs doing time for evading income tax. MS does not need to be crushed (well, probably not..) but they do need to be controlled. Perhaps those who are thirsty for Microsoft's blood just need a good dose of reality? Reality can depend on perspective. The charge of the Light Brigade was real. The guys brewing tea behind the cannons had one viewpoint, the guys sitting on the horses at the other end had another. Both were equally real. Most of the anti-MS sentiment here comes from people who are angry at having to deal in their own professions, with MS arrogance, half-assed software, and 'Highlander' style business practices. This is a reality. There is a lot of experience here and many are seeing our careers and futures turning bleak because of MS propogated garbage. Is it a reality that business can save tons by replacing expensive, experienced, employees with cheap amateurs and MS software? I don't think so, but a number of us are going to be hurting before the PHB's figure this out. What's the reality here? Shit happens? Shoulda been born rich? Most of us are exposed to enough reality that hip waders just don't do it any more. In all, this is a pretty reasonable community (ignoring a few occasional lapses... (could happen anywhere.. (mumble..))) Regards, Hugh\t
Post #16,370 by Squidley 11/3/01 3:00:54 PM Reply	Re: On laws, reality, and perspective... antitrust law apparently isn't enough to crush Microsoft the way some people here wanted them crushed Hmmm... lessee now... There ARE antitrust laws to protect against behavior such as MS's. MS HAS been found guilty. Agreed, but apparently it's a law that requires violators to face forward-looking remedies instead of backward-looking punishment. If I'm right about this - and I seem to be, given that the trial is still in its remedy phase and no punishment phase has ever been scheduled - then what basis do you have for demanding punishment? I'd really like to see a list of Microsoft's violations for which you think the law's prescribed solution - a remedy - is insufficient. MS business scams are in the billions of dollars [...] I'd like to know what you're referring to here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a scam is a fraudulent business scheme. Has Microsoft even been accused of such a thing? Please list the established instances of outright fraud that have netted Microsoft billions of dollars. MS does not need to be crushed (well, probably not..) but they do need to be controlled. You may be right, but how should they be controlled? Could it be that there are simply no laws currently on the books to effectively deal with the Microsoft "problem", whatever that may be? Many people are now accusing the government of having sold out; some are calling the settlement an antitrust enforcement failure. I'm merely suggesting a different possibility - that the Microsoft "problem" may be something new for which no existing law provides a good solution, just like the monopoly problem was 120 years ago. Wouldn't it be more productive to explore that possibility instead of mindlessly lashing out at the government? Perhaps those who are thirsty for Microsoft's blood just need a good dose of reality? Reality can depend on perspective. [...] Most of the anti-MS sentiment here comes from people who are angry at having to deal in their own professions, with MS arrogance, half-assed software, and 'Highlander' style business practices. This is a reality. You're absolutely right; reality does depend on perspective. I assure you that there are plenty of people out there who actually prefer to work with Microsoft's products and technologies. Could it be that some of the folks here have trouble separating their opinions from reality?
Post #16,373 by Ashton 11/3/01 4:02:29 PM Reply	Unawareness kills. Were you looking for some kEwL d0odZ perhaps? Wrong venue. Try MSNBC or EZ. As apparently you are unaware, while trotting out trite slogans sans an iota of research: This 'group' coalesced beginning >6 years ago, around the original (working) InfoWorld forums - way back when IW/IWE were making the transition from having been a valuable source of honest technical review to ... mere regurgatation of MS press releases, 'reviewing' of non-existent announced vaporware VS shipping products, and a host of other atrocities. There are professional folks here who use virtually all platforms, and are bloody well aware of the deficiencies and much of the political whys of each. There are quite diverse views here, with consensus perhaps on only one principle: BS will be ferreted out; for the pure Goodness of the exercise. Do some homework, read what's already here + on the former location - [link\|http://pub13.ezboard.com/biwethey\|EZ-Board] if you really want to get past naive press-release doggerel and the stuff of Astroturf (perhaps you don't know that word either). There's also an archive of much of the original exchanges at IW, being tabulated - as there is among that all technical tutorials and info which some find valuable, for not being time-related. Lazy? try aaxnet.com for just one site with one person's prof. 'take'. Then, if you have a \ufffd possibly someone will debate it. (I don't presume what your personal acumen is, nor that we've seen the best of it.) Working minds are always welcome. Slogans tend to get dissed. Argument is preferred over contradiction - Monty Python lives. Too. Ashton forward-looking remedies.. Indeed! crunchy frogs, too.
Post #16,385 by Squidley 11/3/01 5:50:53 PM Reply	Re: Unawareness kills. Were you looking for some kEwL d0odZ perhaps? Wrong venue. Try MSNBC or EZ. As apparently you are unaware, while trotting out trite slogans sans an iota of research: No need to sell yourself short, Ashton. You and your buddies are quite the kEwL d0odZ, and only by carefully observing this group did I learn that. This 'group' coalesced beginning >6 years ago, around the original (working) InfoWorld forums - way back when IW/IWE were making the transition from having been a valuable source of honest technical review to ... mere regurgatation of MS press releases, 'reviewing' of non-existent announced vaporware VS shipping products, and a host of other atrocities. Wow, you're blowing my mind with the history lesson, d0od. Will there be a pop quiz tomorrow? There are quite diverse views here, with consensus perhaps on only one principle: BS will be ferreted out; for the pure Goodness of the exercise. May I assume then that you're the chief ferret? Do some homework, read what's already here + on the former location - [link\|http://pub13.ezboard.com/biwethey\|EZ-Board] if you really want to get past naive press-release doggerel and the stuff of Astroturf (perhaps you don't know that word either). There's also an archive of much of the original exchanges at IW, being tabulated - as there is among that all technical tutorials and info which some find valuable, for not being time-related. Ooh, "naive press-release doggerel and the stuff of Astroturf". If I didn't know better, I'd call that a trite slogan. Lazy? try aaxnet.com for just one site with one person's prof. 'take'. Thanks, I checked it out. Pretty standard quasi-religious zealotry, probably somewhere around the 40th Slashdot Percentile. Then, if you have a \ufffd possibly someone will debate it. Either that, or they'll completely ignore my \ufffd and reply with a generic "don't bother us until you get some schoolin'" form letter.
Post #16,638 by ben_tilly 11/5/01 2:52:59 PM Reply	Strong disagreement on your /. estimate Your typical slashbot either has never really worked (often because they are kids of college students) or else has worked, but haven't been anywhere near the actual running of the business. Now Andrew Grygus may be a bit colorful, but he has been running his own consulting business for many years. He is very aware of the needs of running a business for the simple reason that he has done so for many years. Furthermore his customers are other businesses, and his livelyhood depends on his understanding their needs as well. So I suggest that you read him more closely. You should find that he isn't blowing smoke for the sake of blowing smoke. He really does know what he is talking about. Your average slashbot is recognizable in large part for their inability to get beyond stereotypical foaming to see why things are happening, and your average slashbot does not understand either the history or technical details. Andrew makes neither mistake. As for the "kewl doodz" crack, Ashton's point is that we aren't a bunch of script kiddies in here, whining about the latest "in" thing. Most of us are professionals. We may BS about general topics, but when it comes to our areas of technical areas expertise, we are very competent. An area of competency for me is [link\|http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node=tilly\|Perl]. An area of competency for Andrew Grygus is what a small business needs to know about for its IT needs. Cheers, Ben

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