Post #161,049
6/22/04 1:53:53 PM
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Abortion question becoming even more complex
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/20/health/20PREN.html?pagewanted=all&position=|NY Times] Most couples say they are both profoundly grateful for the new information and hugely burdened by the choices it forces them to make. The availability of tests earlier in pregnancy mean that if they opt for an abortion it can be safer and less public.
But first they must decide: What defect, if any, is reason enough to end a pregnancy that was very much wanted? Shortened limbs that could be partly treated with growth hormones? What about a life expectancy of only a few months? What about 30 years? Or a 20 percent chance of mental retardation? There are more and more prebirth tests, but as more detail is available potential parents must wade through a complex moral morass to decide at what point they are justified in aborting a fetus. Doctors are also becoming uncomfortable as they face the problem of people aborting over trival or correctable problems. In the end this reenforces my pro-choice posistion though. This is not a decision that anybody else can make for the parents. I know some parents are going to make contemptible choices, but it is their choice not the governments. On the other hand, I can see where we might have to draw a line someday. What happens when tests get detailed enough to estimate the intelligence or athletic ability or sexual orientation of the fetus. Right now it is a question of how great a level of defect can a parent tolerate, and that is a question for the parent to decide. But when the tests get to the point of tracking things where it is an open question if they are defects or not, the decision will be even harder. Jay
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Post #161,054
6/22/04 2:05:21 PM
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first you have to define defect
The amniotic check on my daughter showed a potential for downs syndrome, I wouldnt voice my opinion to anyone, my wife said G_d's will. She was born healthy with no downes. thanx, bill
Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #161,055
6/22/04 2:10:01 PM
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Not 100% accurate
That few of these tests are 100% accurate is a secondary issue, but it does play in here.
There is a big difference between knowning your fetus has a higher then normal chance of something, knowing it has a 90% chance of something and knowing it has a 99.99% chance of something.
Jay
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Post #161,278
6/23/04 5:38:40 PM
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Re: first you have to define defect
My daughter was born with Down Syndrome. It's funny, but had I known about it while still in the womb, I could possibly have said, "what kind of quality of life would she have?", "she can never be independent", etc... I now realize one more question that should be asked - "who the fuck am I to decide what a "decent quality of life" is?" (not in any way directed toward you Box, just making my point - I know what your post is about).
My daughter, Elise, is a happy, healthy child. She loves life. She may never be totally independent, but there are no guarantees when you bring a child home from the hospital. There is the broken car glass that can change it all. There is mental illness which doesn't show up until the late teens, etc...
I don't necessarily know how I stand on the abortion issue. If you believe a fetus is a "human being", then it is murder. If you believe the fetus is not then it is a medical procedure. I don't know where I stand on this issue. What I do know, is that hypocrisy exists when "pro-lifers" assuage their guilt by choosing to abort babies based on amnio/"whatkindofqualityoflife" excuses. It's hard as hell to raise a kid, let alone a special needs kid. I know. I know.
Aside, as per my daughter, Elise. If she is representative of what Down syndrome is, more parents should aspire to have Down syndrome children. Seriously. She is an absolute joy. I couldn't be more proud to be her father.
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #161,096
6/22/04 5:40:50 PM
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Can see only exponential stickiness coming -
What if a Greed-gene is discovered? Say one which demonstrates a high propensity for antisocial behaviour like .. umm Repo-ism? or Ingratitude? or a tendency towards Bachelier's EDO calculus :-0
(yeah, saw the Nova on the Trillion Dollar Bet)
One might be willing to roll the dice among the 5-17 possible sex orientations ?|? but.. what about a combo Trumpish/Cheneyesque syndrome? -- realizing that 'sonny' would decidedly triple your rent, in your old age.
Ah well - if we can we will. The Priest Class will have apoplexy. What could be more amusing?
Love. It.
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Post #161,128
6/22/04 9:40:15 PM
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They might be complaining now, but just wait
The priests are complaining about all this testing and stuff right now, but just wait.
Eventually they will find the gene for religiosity, and then the priests will be reworking their justifications to say that children without that gene are touched by the devil and must be removed for the good of humanity.
Jay
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Post #161,136
6/22/04 10:31:46 PM
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Hey! yer no fun
..you already know the Master Code :-0
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Post #161,190
6/23/04 10:21:56 AM
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World-wide the most commonly acted-on data is...
gender.
When it is acted on, being female is more likely to be a lethal mistake.
Where do you think that the line should be drawn?
Cheers, Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #161,251
6/23/04 4:28:19 PM
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Somewhere below that
Using a scale that goes like this:
Wrong eye color Wrong Sex Correctable problem Minor Problem Major life altering problem Won't live to old age Won't live to adulthood Won't make it out of hospital
I think the line is someplace between Correctable problem and Won't live to old age. But where it is between those two, I can't say.
Jay
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Post #161,254
6/23/04 4:45:00 PM
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Don't know that "Correctable problem" is in the right spot
Some friends of mine had a kid born with spinal bifida. It's a screwup where the spinal cord is exposed outside the body, in her case anyway. I suppose some cases are not that severe. It was supposed to be correctable. They poured their life savings into fixing her, and the kid died before she hit puberty. He suicided and she was drinking herself to death when she overdosed. I'd have been a lot happier if they'd flushed it, but not my call.
"Correctable" can be overrated in a lot of things.
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Post #161,286
6/23/04 5:59:09 PM
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..esp. when the AMA def'n of "cancer / or other cure"
is that, after 5.0 years: you are still hangin-on barely, with poisoned liver, a M/Soft-grade immune system, in a wheelchair -- but, you lasted 5 years!
Spina-bifida.. it's a Pity they didn't go farther in research than one doctor's vague "encouragement" [?] on that one. When you fully realize the degree of Frankensteinian rebuild necessary..
As you say.. not your call :( And to a Fundie: Nobody's Call, and soon - if we aren't a tad more vigilant.
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Post #161,299
6/23/04 6:46:19 PM
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I have a question for you...
You write: "Right now it is a question of how great a level of defect can a parent tolerate, and that is a question for the parent to decide."
What happens if the parent is "defective", uninformed, underinformed, uninformable about the condition the fetus may have. Most folks do not come in contact with the "underground society" of special needs children/adults unless they are directly faced with it. Most people are at best, uninformed about the underground society. I pose the question on boxley's post, but I pose it to you. How do you define "decent quality of life"? And, even as the parent or doctor, "who the hell are you to decide what a decent quality of life is"? If you are "pro-life" you take what God gives you. All else is one big hypocritical excuse to assuage your guilt. As far "how great a level of defect" a parent can tolerate" - give me a break... How much financial discomfort can a parent tolerate? How much inconvenience on time can a parent tolerate? You are already past the slippery slope... If parent's convenience is the deciding factor in abortion, then you cannot call yourself pro-life and not be a hypocrit.
When my daughter was born, I started attending meetings for parents of Down Syndrome children. In one meeting, a deeply distraught parent asked the group "what would it be like to always walk into a classroom and be 50 IQ points lower than them? How can they survive like that?" I stood up and applauded. I said, finally, someone can relate to how I feel. Most rooms I walk into all the people are at least 50 IQ points lower than me. I've always wondered how they survived.
The room was quite. :-)
I have personal experience with this issue. It has clouded my opinion. I realize this. All I want is consistency. I insist on it. It is not your hypocrisy that bothers me either. It is society's. It allows well intentioned people to say with a straight face, "I absolutely respect the sanctity of life, except if it REALLY REALLY REALLY inconveniences me". That is why that even in the rightest right winger's lexicon, you still find clauses that include the murder (if you are pro-life) of babies based on their genetics and the potential inconvenience to the parents. I think this is a travesty. Pick a side. Either you are pro-choice (the world has too many unwanted babies as it is - hell, too many homo saps in general), or you are pro-life, no matter what form that life comes in. What do you think Jesus would have wanted for me. To abort my Down Syndrome child or to accept her as she is?
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #161,303
6/23/04 7:08:58 PM
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play the hand you are dealt, sometimes you fold
Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #161,388
6/24/04 3:53:24 AM
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Can't always fold, though.
Sometimes you've got to DEAL WITH IT, as Phillikins would say.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #161,500
6/24/04 4:48:03 PM
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I think fold = die in this case
At least that was how I read it.
Cheers, Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #161,503
6/24/04 4:52:36 PM
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Folding is a choice.
That's how I read the metaphor.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #161,344
6/23/04 10:19:53 PM
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Not that clear cut
I have personal experience with this issue. It has clouded my opinion. I realize this. All I want is consistency. I insist on it. It is not your hypocrisy that bothers me either. It is society's. It allows well intentioned people to say with a straight face, "I absolutely respect the sanctity of life, except if it REALLY REALLY REALLY inconveniences me". That is why that even in the rightest right winger's lexicon, you still find clauses that include the murder (if you are pro-life) of babies based on their genetics and the potential inconvenience to the parents. I think this is a travesty. Pick a side. Either you are pro-choice (the world has too many unwanted babies as it is - hell, too many homo saps in general), or you are pro-life, no matter what form that life comes in. You are trying to condense a complex issue down into a single black/white choice. The reality isn't that simple. Yes, you are probably personally better off for having had your daughter, but how can you make that judgement for others? Is a person who's child is doomed to be born with an unformed heart and live a few days of agony before death really supposed to go through with it, rather then having the mercy to end that life before it can suffer? If you want horror stories about painful and doomed lives, I can provide an endless list. Here is one picked at random. [link|http://www.canavanfoundation.org/canavan.php|Canavan Foundation] Children with Canavan disease cannot crawl, walk, sit or talk. Over time they may suffer seizures, become paralyzed, mentally retarded or blind and have trouble swallowing. Although hearing usually remains a functioning sense, deafness may also result. Most children do not live past age 10. [link|http://www.specialchild.com/archives/dz-034.html|Special Child-Sanfilippo syndrome] In stage 1, it is noticed that the child starts to lag behind and develops difficult behavior. In stage 2, the child may become extremely active, restless, and often have very difficult behavior. Some children have sleep disturbances. Many like to chew on their hands, clothes, or other accessible items. Language and understanding will gradually become lost. Some children never become toilet trained and those who do will eventually lose the ability. In stage 3, the child will begin to slow down. They have more difficulty when walking or running and fall often, eventually losing the ability to walk altogether.
The current life expectancy for children with Sanfilippo syndrome is 14 to 20 years. However, parents should remain hopeful in that researchers are actively working on a cure to save the lives of children with this disease. And another one, even more applicable to this disussion. [link|http://www.ifopa.org/symptoms.html|Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva] FOP is short for Fibrodysplasia Ossificans Progressiva. The disease is also known as Myositis Ossificans Progressiva; the name was modified in the 1970s to acknowledge the involvement of other soft, or fibrous, tissues in addition to muscle. FOP is a rare genetic disorder in which bone forms in muscles, tendons, ligaments, and other connective tissues. Bridges of extra bone form across the joints in characteristic patterns, progressively restricting movement. FOP is a disease in which the body produces not just too much bone, but an extra skeleton that immobilizes the joints of the body. During the first or second decade of life, children form painful fibrous nodules over the neck, back, and shoulders which mature into bone in a process known as heterotopic ossification. FOP then progresses along the trunk and limbs of the body. These lesions slowly replace the body's muscles with normal appearing bone. Any attempt to remove the extra bone results in even more robust bone formation. People who have FOP experience different rates of new bone formation; in some the progress is rapid, while in others it is more gradual. I am not pro-choice because I think killing potential lives is good or bad. I am pro-choice because I don't think I can make that decision for somebody else when it is not clear cut. What do you think Jesus would have wanted for me. To abort my Down Syndrome child or to accept her as she is? As a non-christian, I am not going to touch that question. Jay
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Post #161,378
6/24/04 2:14:11 AM
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Two such eloquent posts as these
- demonstrate once again why zIWE is amongst the tiny-few civilized oases, in the Era of Cant. Ain't real English Great ?!
Nor will I take on, either - the personalization of the Unknowable, by any one of the various names, each-one being thought by millions to be, The Only One worth attending.
What I think defines "The Problem" of making any such decisions as the sort at hand - is the same one which creates so many other massive and massively obnoxious polarizations (instead of humane and profound discussion, followed by *mutually defended* Rights! for Each Person to finally, Choose As S/He Will):
Techno is way-advanced over social convention; ethos, logos and mythos. Our '04 'Gods' are not of our Modern Myths, and most humans appear to Need myth, in order to emulate an invisible Authority -- for the rilly Tough choices as appear. Most..
Of course! the ancient myths cannot extrapolate to today's options.. except via treating the connotation of a metaphor as if it were the denotation == Fundamentalist, literal interpretation of {variously extracted.. multiply-translated words} of 7?-25+ centuries ago.
And those of us living now, but not under the thrall of any one of the various warring God-names: we too must live amidst this endless Right/Wrong Good/Evil worldwide! polarization .. the root expression of that metaphysical "world-of-duality"!
So What To Do ??? - when it's *your* pregnancy. And you live 'here'.
There IS no Single "Right | Good" Answer for all. Until that Fact is fully comprehended, grokked-to-Fullness.. Realized! - all (I can see, that) an honest person can do in the interim is:
FIGHT AGAINST any effort to impose theological homilies upon citizens of a Nation which began from the Clearly Enunciated Decision NOT-ever to become a Theocracy.
..and make Your Own Decision, which will be unlike any other person's decision, because: no one Else is You.
ie. There can be no man abortion /verbose -- at least, that I can imagine.
Ashton
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Post #161,382
6/24/04 2:47:30 AM
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Since we're nearly "IRCing"
I didn't have a chance to read your post before my last one. Thank you for the kind words. By what's happened to me over the last two years, I've become quite knowledgeable on this particular subject. I think I cut to the heart of what I was "waxing" on in my reply below. That most of these "genetic" amnio abortions are Down Syndrome. And now that I am personally involved, I don't take too kindly to folks politicizing (sp?) this particular issue.
The reason I'm so moved is that we didn't have the test done. Had we, I would have probably insisted that she have an abortion. I almost did that anyway (not knowing anything at all about the baby) for financial reasons. I feel profound guilt for having felt that way ... to this day.
I sometimes wonder if there is a sadistic bastard god up there, if only to have someone to blame for things. Then, I realize that there's too much work to get done and let those thoughts float right out of my mind.
As per Aristotle, I would love to see the logos at least get some passing lip service in the daily diatribe... but as you so succinctly point out, it has no place in a polarized world. As Paul Lazarus once said... nah... I have "fairyland" emblazened in the back of my skull. Hi ho. And so on... I'm going to the beach this week... Atlantic ocean. Beer... Children.
They said my name was Rudolph Waltz and that was that. Year after year they pile on detail upon detail. They never shut up. (Page 1, Deadeye Dick)
Sorry for being a poor correspondent. I miss you guys.
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #161,407
6/24/04 10:52:24 AM
6/24/04 10:54:06 AM
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I've only had one reassuring thought in that whole debate.
I sometimes wonder if there is a sadistic bastard god up there, if only to have someone to blame for things. I figure, if there's some omnipotent being that created us, that it is treating us with the respect that a parental figure treats an adult - it lets them make their own mistakes, instead of condescending or coddling the child. And quite frankly, that's the way I like that relationship, if it exists.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #161,380
6/24/04 2:26:44 AM
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Re: Not that clear cut
For the sake of this discussion, I am parsing this issue down to "one" of the genetic defects that are cause for abortion - Down Syndrome. I have always (until personally confronted) maintained that abortion is a "woman's" right to choose. In many aspects, I still maintain that view. Notice that I didn't say "parents". It is her body and it is more than likely her that will inherit most of the child rearing duties. That stated, Down Syndrome is still considered "grounds" for an abortion. Half of all children born with Down Syndrome have congenital heart defects that can only be corrected through surgery in their first year. Many of them do not live past their teens... etc. They are 4 times more likely to have leukemia. They are 20 times more likely to have early onset of altzheimers, etc... I have now had the priviledge to have met many such kids.
Something profound happens when you see them suffering (and I am now going to the philosophical realm). They are not suffering "all the time". In fact, for many, constant pain is a given in the life equation. They know nothing different. Much like someone who is born blind, their "quality of life" does not include sight. For the sighted, it seems that this is a miserable condition. But there is still time for the profoundly disabled, the blind, the quadriplegics, et al to feel love and purpose. You must ask yourself, would you be willing to continue living 23.5 hours in constant pain for .5 hours of pleasure. Would your life be worth living? Many elderly face this every day, but on the backside of life, it is against the law to humanely euthanize THEM. What gives? Consistency?
Not one child that leaves the hospital is perfect. Which brings me back to the consistency thing - the condition of the baby in the womb should have no bearing on your belief towards abortion. Because of my experience, I see it as extremely clear cut. Either you accept responsibility for your actions or you don't. Just like you can't be "sort of" pregnant. I feel that sensationalizing the issue with worst case scenario horror stories trivializes and ignores the most common "genetic defect" that face most expectant parents - trisomy 21. I think if you do the research, greater than 90% of aborted genetic defect (as detected from amnio) are Down Syndrome children. This is why I'm on your ass right now. Going on vacation for a few weeks so my non reply is not personal.
The happily ever after fails, we've been poisoned by these fairy tales, the lawyers dwell on small details... (per Don Henley)
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
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Post #161,408
6/24/04 10:59:37 AM
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Downs or no...
...your daughter is a delight, right?
And she always will be - just aim for one thing: making life happy. Everything else is ephemera.
She'll never be a computer programmer [although, looking round the office, you never know...] but she'll always be YOUR SPAWN.
Sometimes, it's just a question of re-evaluating what's important.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #161,409
6/24/04 11:01:26 AM
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Yep.
Life sucks, Then you die, Then they put you in a hole in the ground, And then the worms eat you.
BE GLAD IT HAPPENS IN THAT ORDER!
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #161,411
6/24/04 11:09:58 AM
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You haven't been watching Fear Factor, have you?
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #161,414
6/24/04 11:30:40 AM
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Nope, there they eat the worms.
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