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New There's not a "side" to this, IMO.
If you have information, share what you can.

If its so secret that you can't release it, then tell the people who are in the area, warn them, and start making preparations.

Expect the US public to cut back on going out. That's normal, expected. Stop trying to "crack down" so much, and expect the average person to help out. Inform them, and let them take some responsibility.

Actually, a large part of this problem is our abandonment of any sort of "Civil Defence" drills/procedures. We need to re/establish those, and let people know that there are plans, and what they need to *do* in case of them.

The panic is because people are scared of being caught, or something happening and *not knowing what to do*. So, address that. *Tell them what they likely will need to do*.

Not telling that there's a planned attack is silly. Hell, *tell us*, and we'll be there with bells on. :) (or lasers).

Yes, I think this leads into other beliefs and views of mine, quite neatly - the average person *should* be expected in our culture to be responsible, and not to merely step aside and let the "professional" save them. As the article yesterday about the National Guardsmen on power trips - that's what happens in that case.

Addison
New I disagree
The stated goal of the terrorists is to spread fear in the US public.

The damage done, for instance by Anthrax, is very much secondary to the generated publicity. This is even true when you count the bigger and more successful attacks. For instance when you put together the year so far, the odds of your being killed by a terrorist were a fraction of your odds of being murdered by a fellow American in a homicide. And that is as nothing to the dangers of drunk driving. If you look at NYC alone from the start of terrorist attacks against us in 1993 to now, murder was more likely to get you than Osama's followers.

So if they can get reasonable bang for an unsubstantiated telephone call, well from their point of view that is fine and dandy. For that reason and that reason alone, while I agree with the authorities taking threats seriously, I don't think they should serve as a mouthpiece for Al Qaeda's propaganda.

Cheers,
Ben
New But you didn't. :)
So if they can get reasonable bang for an unsubstantiated telephone call, well from their point of view that is fine and dandy.

Exactly.

But I'm not saying you propogate every such call (but that's already a problem, with bomb threats and such. Its the *credible threats* that keep getting mentioned.

Addison
New But I did
I think the question is whether or not what the government is calling "credible evidence" is credible enough to bother the general public with.

From the point of view of the feds, if they get people they know are insiders in Al Qaeda talking about stuff that is going down, that is about as credible as they can get without enough evidence to stop something. So they call this credible evidence. But I am saying that that is not credible enough to try to make the US public get more scared than it is.

For instance from the statistics [link|http://alcoholism.about.com/library/ncrash01.htm|here] there are probably (order of magnitude) going to be around 42,000 traffic fatalities this year in the USA. Assuming that they are evenly distributed, in the last 2 months that comes to about 7,000.

So based on the last 2 months, credible evidence says that the average American has more to worry about from cars on the road than from terrorism. This despite the last 2 months being the most successful 2 month period for terrorists in history! But which is keeping people awake and sweating at night?

In short, unless the government has credible enough evidence to move large numbers of people, or good reason to believe that making people hypervigilant will improve their odds of catching someone, I think they should cut back. What I want to see them do is make the same comparisons that I am making, encourage people to live their lives, acknowledge the risk, point out precautions that they should take against terrorists, and try to reach a calm status quo.

Because the fact is that this is going to go on for a good time to come. We need to treat this like we do car accidents. We all have a few habits (eg look both ways, wear a seatbelt, don't be stupid in a car) but we don't get unduly panicked over every small thing to do with car accidents. And I think that is how the general public should deal with terrorism as well.

OTOH freaking everyone out is great for people who want to conduct a power grab...

Cheers,
Ben

PS Please note that I am living in one of the top targets for terrorist attack. NYC. I walk by the UN. I work by St. Patrick's Cathedral. I live in the Bellevue-Tisch hospital complex. My bank is in the Empire St Building. If the average American is supposed to become hyper-vigilant, what should I do? Run in circles, scream and shout?
New Media/government
With all those high-risk factors, Ben is STILL more likely to die from having a drunk run over him than from a terrorist attack.

But that doesn't sell airtime or papers.

Nor does it justify decreasing our civil liberties.

This is a THREAT son! Don't you understand THAT!?

EXTREME measures must be taken!

I'd settle for getting known drunks off the road and into treatment. We'd save more lives.
New Terrorism isn't statistical
Your policy conclusions may have some validity. Your statistical arguments have none.

Automobile accidents are widely distributed, have numerous causes, are largely nonintentional, and, more to the point, have likely remained more or less constant before and after Sept. 11. There may be small observable trends, but the gross picture hasn't changed.

You could have predicted in January, 2001, that there would be about 3,000 - 3,500 deaths due to traffic accidents in September.

The same cannot be said for terrorism.

Terrorist acts are not widely distributed, have a single cause (intention of the individuals or organizations perpetuating them), are intentional, and, more to the point, have changed rather drastically in perception (at least to American minds, and I'd posit most of the world) since Sept. 11, 2001.

As your friends in insurance will tell you, terrorism isn't insurable, in the ordinary sense of the word. You can buy terrorism insurance, at a very steep premium. But, due to the intentional nature of terrorism, the very act of doing so may change your odds of being targeted. By contrast, you can buy health insurance with suicide coverage, and it's a fairly standard rider -- but the boys uptown won't let it cash out until you've carried the policy a few years (two, IIRC). Their numbers show that this is a predictable risk (few suicides practice sufficient self restraint to, er, profit).

In an environment with sufficient sustained medium-level incidents -- say, Israel or Sri Lanka -- there might be grounds to provide a moderate, capped, general payout for terrorism, so long as trends don't change.

The problem, however, is that statistics -- the use of averages, means, trends, and laws of large numbers -- to predict intentional events of large scale, is misguided. The assumption in statistics is that past experience is a guide for the future, that there are corralative (and possibly causal) relationships which can be drawn, and that for a given set of measures (with a given cost), outcomes may be swayed.

In your automobile example, it's reasonable to assume that, to a good approximation, countermeasures to automobile deaths were largely at appropriate levels prior to Sept. 11, 2001: there's not much a person could be doing differently today than she would have done September 10. Wear a seatbelt, drive a car with an airbag, avoid drugs and alcohol, obey traffic controls, stick to well-engineered routes, avoid driving at night, in inclement weather, or 2am on weekend nights.

Terrorism violates all of those assumptions.

To a gross level, there are some elements of probability which can be suggested. Population, government, business, cultural, military, and infrastructure centers are more likely targets. Surprise is certainly a tool of the terrorist. Sustained levels of global defense are not possible -- there are too many targets, and they cannot all be guarded, all the time. IMO there are many lessons to be learned from computer security: diversify your resources, provide for redundant capabilities, back up essential resources, defend against obvious threats, watch for signs of hostile activity, and take early action to minimize the damage resulting from an attack. Note too that the enemy's actions have all leveraged grossly inferior capabilities, largly by hijacking our own infrastructure.

Note that the last doesn't mean "hunt down and destroy the perps of every offense" -- particular cells may not be worthwhile targets (hitting the enemy's nervous system is certainly an objective). It means remove their ability to harm you. This can be by disarming, disabling, immobilizing, or destroying the enemy. It can also be by removing or reducing the risk aspects of their target. Move sensitive populations or materiel from the site. Apply countermeasures (drugs, immunizations, fire supressants) to the particular threat mode. Remove volatile loads (fuel, explosives, chemicals, etc.) or render them inert. Geographically diversify your installations, population, business, industry, and military. Present decoy targets. And, when possible, do hunt down and destroy the enemy's capabilities.

I don't feel that the administration's handling is what it could be. If I were you, I'd be interested in finding out just what alert mechanisms (and communications methods) have been established in my neighborhood. NYC is both a likely target, and a well-defended zone. Rudy seems to be doing a pretty good job, considered (I wish he had someone else's job right now). And, be mindful that the enemy's attacks have maximized response, not effect.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New True but...
I firmly believe that the repeated warnings from the government largely are being done for political purposes, and not because it will really help make people safer.

But I agree that, for instance, a single nuke in New York City, taking out every place I just mentioned and many more besides, would go a long way towards distorting any possible statistics.

However still additional vigilance against car accidents gets a better return for the effort for most people than freaking out when they see powdered sugar on a table in a restaurant. And given seatbelt usage rates, the public has a long way to go towards basic car safety...

Cheers,
Ben
New Repeated warnings
When the government cries wolf often enough, nobody will pay attention.

If the only thing you can say is "Something is going to happen" (as Ashcroft pretty much said), it's better not saying anything. How do you guard against "something"?

Now if you have something like a known plot to blow up bridges, that's one thing. (On the other hand, with it being Governor Gray Davis doing the announcing, there's a bit of a credibility problem there, too.)
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New NY may no longer be the top target.
It appears that the terrorists have already scared NY & DC enough. I suspect they want to scare the rest of the country before they hit NY again. Since they seem to want to target the U.S. and World economy you might think they might want to hit an another economic target, say an oil reserve, a port, or a west coast or mid-west financial center?

Do you really think that most Americans live in fear today and are easily coaxed into terror by the announcements by our government? Did you know that the recent threats were discovered by the Canadian government who shared the info with us? I severely doubt our government used the announcements for political purposes.
New Good answer.
You make a good point about people not being informed on what to do in case of another attack, excuse me, er when the next attack comes. The best way to fight fear is to look it in the face and tackle it head on. We are tackling bin Laden and his gang of terrorist/druglords but we need a plan of attack/defense when we run into local cells. Is there a web site discussing what citizens should do/look for in the event of a) terrorist bomb attempts, b) terrorist shootings, c) anthrax contamination, d) truck bombs, etc.

I think the public needs to be better educated and the government (Tom Ridge) needs to take the lead. I already know enough to stand in a doorway or under a table in the event of an earthquake. What should we do in the event of religious extremists hell bent on murder?

P.S. the answer to (c) is wash your hands and try not to smell suspect powders.
Don't shake suspicious envelopes and be weary of envelopes written in block letters by fourth graders from Trenton NJ.
New What can you do?
When someone is willing to sacrifice his/her life to kill you, you don't have many options.

Mailings are a different story. You can teach people what characteristics to look for.

Other than that, all you can do is practice your disaster drills. In case of fire, earthquake, bomb, etc.
New It's not so much about what to do but what to look for.
... as you mentioned with the Anthrax warning signs.

We also know these terrorists might be "Arabic" with colored hair, clean shaven, etc, etc.

I respect to bombings, what did we leave from the Atlanta Olympic bombing? Watch out for people leaving breifcases/packages in public areas? What else? Do you see what I am getting at? We as a nation are sorta naive about terrorism because we haven't had to deal with it before on our soil.
New In other words: Use IT to your advantage.
Information and knowledge are powerful tools. Some have even said, "knowledge is power". Does anyone disagree?

P.S. What is one of the first thing the Taliban did to the Afghan people?


Cut off their information lines, their communication with the outside world.

Do you think that is accidental?
Expand Edited by brettj Nov. 1, 2001, 01:08:23 AM EST
New Suppose you know....
for a fact that within a minute your location will be hit by a 60 megaton warhead.

More power to you! :)

In this case, ignorance *is* bliss.
Alex

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
New Relax. They don't make those.
IIRC that was a Russian one-shot to see if it's true: no virtual limit to a thermonuclear device, once the fire is lit. Just add those Li spools and left-over -238...

So it's much more likely < 1 Megaton coming. Ergo:

Go ahead and putt; it'll be a minute or so ... before the shockwave hits. (Great cartoon, only a few years prescient, it seems)



Ashton
you'll have to catch the replay on cable, though..
New An ounce of prevention ...
... is worth a pound of cure.

Information/knowledge is as much about prevention as it is about healing.

There are two main ways to solve a problem: remove the cause, or dampen the effect.
Who would have thought IT and Medicine had so much in common?!
     Which side of the Intelligence dilemma are you on? - (brettj) - (20)
         There's not a "side" to this, IMO. - (addison) - (15)
             I disagree - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                 But you didn't. :) - (addison) - (6)
                     But I did - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         Media/government - (Brandioch)
                         Terrorism isn't statistical - (kmself) - (2)
                             True but... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 Repeated warnings - (wharris2)
                         NY may no longer be the top target. - (brettj)
             Good answer. - (brettj) - (6)
                 What can you do? - (Brandioch) - (5)
                     It's not so much about what to do but what to look for. - (brettj) - (4)
                         In other words: Use IT to your advantage. - (brettj) - (3)
                             Suppose you know.... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 Relax. They don't make those. - (Ashton)
                                 An ounce of prevention ... - (brettj)
         One theory - (tuberculosis) - (3)
             Sshhhh! -NT - (Ashton)
             Disagreement - (ben_tilly)
             Another theory - (jb4)

I'm very sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue with you unless you've paid.
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