re: That's all I needed.

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Post #156,686

by tablizer

5/24/04 4:40:18 PM

re: That's all I needed.

It seems to me the claim under discussion in this thread was "O-R mappers bloat your code". Now that you've admitted that they don't, we can put it to rest.

I didn't say that they don't. I just don't have any comparative evidence to offer youses right now.

I am curious though about what percent of self-declared OO proponents prefer O-R mappers. Many have lots of complaints.

"Bryce can't provide an example", not "the status is unknown." You say it's bloated, prove it. Otherwise it isn't.

False dichotomy. The answer to "is A > B" is Null at this point.

Otherwise shaddap.

Okay. After addressing some ongoing subissues, I will shut up about O-R mappers until new evidence arises.

________________
oop.ismad.com

Post #156,690

by admin

5/24/04 4:46:37 PM

re: That's all I needed.

Given that the evidence so far has either been conceded or unanswered by you, I'd say "isn't" is a lot closer to the current state of affairs than "null". Of course, you will never admit that, so I'll take a "shaddap". I have no doubt that you'll sit on this for a while and then trot out, "youses never proved it wasn't bloated!" at some point in the future, so I'm calling pre-foul now so it doesn't happen.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Have I mentioned lately that Python is BITCHIN??? - (FuManChu) - (167) - May 12, 2004, 05:27:50 PM EDT

The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (tablizer) - (166) - May 15, 2004, 02:32:16 AM EDT

Re: The solution is to toss OO to begin with, not Python - (admin) - (11) - May 15, 2004, 10:25:01 AM EDT

not today -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 15, 2004, 02:23:14 PM EDT

*BLAM BLAM* *VROOOOOooooommm.....* -NT - (pwhysall) - (1) - May 18, 2004, 01:48:41 AM EDT

and when you do the same? -NT - (tablizer) - May 18, 2004, 02:11:02 AM EDT

Bloat explanation - (tablizer) - (7) - May 20, 2004, 02:16:42 PM EDT

Not what I meant. - (admin) - May 20, 2004, 02:42:07 PM EDT

That's a very table-centric point of view - (FuManChu) - (5) - May 20, 2004, 04:01:01 PM EDT

Of course. Tables rock. Code is ugly. - (tablizer) - (4) - May 20, 2004, 11:51:39 PM EDT

Snort. - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 03:09:32 AM EDT

Re: Snort - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 01:24:08 AM EDT

So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (ben_tilly) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 01:46:09 PM EDT

Re: So now you're down on "skinny" tables? - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 01:27:18 AM EDT

Not sure what you're pushing for. - (FuManChu) - (153) - May 15, 2004, 01:42:31 PM EDT

Software engineering is gambling - (tablizer) - (152) - May 15, 2004, 02:25:02 PM EDT

The only thing this app does is business modeling. -NT - (FuManChu) - (151) - May 15, 2004, 08:29:45 PM EDT

I meant showing me code, not anecdotes -NT - (tablizer) - (150) - May 17, 2004, 03:14:54 PM EDT

Ironic, considering how much code *you* have shown... -NT - (ben_tilly) - (9) - May 17, 2004, 04:08:43 PM EDT

Wonder how the L Compiler is getting on? -NT - (pwhysall) - (6) - May 17, 2004, 05:58:54 PM EDT

It's Late. - (admin) - (5) - May 17, 2004, 06:09:04 PM EDT

I was wondering where the L it was. -NT - (pwhysall) - May 17, 2004, 06:10:43 PM EDT

The P game - (tablizer) - (3) - May 17, 2004, 09:55:24 PM EDT

Re: The P game - (admin) - (2) - May 17, 2004, 10:42:48 PM EDT

you still have no evidence of betterment - (tablizer) - (1) - May 17, 2004, 11:20:07 PM EDT

No, you compare it. - (admin) - May 17, 2004, 11:41:31 PM EDT

The burden of evidence is on you - (tablizer) - (1) - May 17, 2004, 09:58:28 PM EDT

And what claim did I ever make? - (ben_tilly) - May 18, 2004, 01:38:46 AM EDT

Well, here's the thing - (FuManChu) - (139) - May 18, 2004, 11:43:20 AM EDT

Unicorns - (tablizer) - (138) - May 19, 2004, 12:08:46 AM EDT

OT: Have you been reading Groklaw tonight too? - (Another Scott) - May 19, 2004, 12:16:57 AM EDT

General description - (FuManChu) - (136) - May 19, 2004, 03:34:13 PM EDT

SQL wrapper? - (tablizer) - (135) - May 20, 2004, 02:27:17 PM EDT

Generic SQL wrapper API - (admin) - (30) - May 20, 2004, 02:43:41 PM EDT

I see bloated people - (tablizer) - (29) - May 20, 2004, 10:36:48 PM EDT

Er... - (admin) - (19) - May 20, 2004, 11:07:55 PM EDT

re: Er... - (tablizer) - (18) - May 20, 2004, 11:23:21 PM EDT

Nice attempt - (admin) - (17) - May 20, 2004, 11:29:49 PM EDT

re: Nice attempt - (tablizer) - (13) - May 20, 2004, 11:40:36 PM EDT

re: Nice attempt - (admin) - (12) - May 21, 2004, 12:09:30 AM EDT

Forgot to add: - (admin) - May 21, 2004, 12:40:28 AM EDT

Aieee! Actual code! HOW DARE YOU!!! -NT - (pwhysall) - (10) - May 21, 2004, 03:33:20 PM EDT

Making it interesting - (ChrisR) - (9) - May 21, 2004, 04:23:49 PM EDT

Heh. I think Bryce would rather have someone else write it - (FuManChu) - May 21, 2004, 04:36:53 PM EDT

Don't you know? - (Arkadiy) - May 21, 2004, 05:09:06 PM EDT

Putting words in my mouth - (tablizer) - (6) - May 22, 2004, 01:35:42 AM EDT

Actually, what you said was: - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:53:24 AM EDT

Re: Putting words in my mouth - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 08:10:19 AM EDT

Code Talks. Bryce Walks. - (ChrisR) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 10:00:19 AM EDT

I shall consider it -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 01:37:48 PM EDT

Thanks. - (ChrisR) - May 22, 2004, 01:54:33 PM EDT

If you don't... - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 02:37:40 PM EDT

RE: Are you willing to admit this yet? - (ChrisR) - (2) - May 20, 2004, 11:45:52 PM EDT

Even OO fans are mixed about OR-mappers - (tablizer) - (1) - May 20, 2004, 11:57:54 PM EDT

Looks pretty specific. - (admin) - May 21, 2004, 12:14:30 AM EDT

In Dejavu, one would write: - (FuManChu) - (8) - May 21, 2004, 03:27:29 AM EDT

Re: In Dejavu, one would write: - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 21, 2004, 07:03:27 AM EDT

An earlier version was like that. - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 21, 2004, 11:58:02 AM EDT

Forgot: code links - (FuManChu) - May 21, 2004, 12:42:02 PM EDT

ICLRPD - (drewk) - May 21, 2004, 11:09:34 AM EDT

Why learn and/or create another query language? - (tablizer) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 01:52:44 AM EDT

In case you missed it: - (FuManChu) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 10:55:32 AM EDT

only for the trivial - (tablizer) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 01:48:38 PM EDT

There are multiple ways of doing that... - (FuManChu) - May 22, 2004, 06:09:07 PM EDT

LCD *for my framework* - (FuManChu) - (103) - May 20, 2004, 04:33:14 PM EDT

RDBMS > "data store" - (tablizer) - (102) - May 20, 2004, 11:10:21 PM EDT

Re: RDBMS > "data store" - (admin) - (92) - May 20, 2004, 11:30:37 PM EDT

still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (tablizer) - (91) - May 20, 2004, 11:34:01 PM EDT

Re: still have not justified yet another tool/layers - (admin) - (90) - May 20, 2004, 11:37:31 PM EDT

before and after - (tablizer) - (89) - May 20, 2004, 11:44:23 PM EDT

Re: before and after - (admin) - (88) - May 21, 2004, 12:17:14 AM EDT

Then why have an OR-mapper middleman? -NT - (tablizer) - (87) - May 22, 2004, 01:37:16 AM EDT

Because: - (admin) - (86) - May 22, 2004, 08:07:06 AM EDT

I forgot about query caching--a big part of my other app. -NT - (FuManChu) - May 22, 2004, 10:58:05 AM EDT

Those are problems that OO introduces - (tablizer) - (84) - May 22, 2004, 01:36:26 PM EDT

Re: Those are problems that OO introduces - (admin) - (83) - May 22, 2004, 03:51:20 PM EDT

response - (tablizer) - (82) - May 22, 2004, 04:24:01 PM EDT

Re: response 1 - (admin) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 04:51:52 PM EDT

Looks like a lot of beurOOcracy to me - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 05:33:12 PM EDT

Not claiming "victory" - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 05:41:30 PM EDT

Let's see your version, then. -NT - (pwhysall) - May 23, 2004, 03:01:33 AM EDT

Re: response 2 - (admin) - (16) - May 22, 2004, 05:08:32 PM EDT

Re Re: response 2 - (tablizer) - (15) - May 22, 2004, 05:44:46 PM EDT

HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (13) - May 22, 2004, 05:58:10 PM EDT

re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (tablizer) - (12) - May 22, 2004, 07:11:18 PM EDT

re: HQL is a superset of SQL - (admin) - (11) - May 22, 2004, 07:17:45 PM EDT

Forced to use A to get B? Tsk tsk tsk. How MS of them. -NT - (tablizer) - (10) - May 22, 2004, 07:44:37 PM EDT

You miss the point, anyway. - (admin) - (9) - May 22, 2004, 07:46:46 PM EDT

I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (tablizer) - (8) - May 22, 2004, 09:17:03 PM EDT

Re: I am not necessarily disagreeing with that here - (admin) - (7) - May 22, 2004, 09:49:59 PM EDT

not my burden of evidence - (tablizer) - (6) - May 23, 2004, 12:10:06 AM EDT

Wrong. - (admin) - (3) - May 23, 2004, 12:37:46 AM EDT

exist != good - (tablizer) - (2) - May 23, 2004, 12:56:18 AM EDT

Existence beats Non-Existence -NT - (ChrisR) - May 23, 2004, 01:00:41 AM EDT

I've already shown you. - (admin) - May 23, 2004, 09:29:00 AM EDT

Hm. So I can make any claim and force you to prove me wrong? - (FuManChu) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 10:21:45 AM EDT

Actually, what he said was: - (admin) - May 23, 2004, 10:53:33 AM EDT

Persistence vs. reporting - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 05:58:53 PM EDT

Re: response 3 - (admin) - (55) - May 22, 2004, 05:14:00 PM EDT

Re Re: response 3 - (tablizer) - (54) - May 22, 2004, 06:14:31 PM EDT

Caching - (admin) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 06:30:10 PM EDT

Re: caching - (tablizer) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 07:20:05 PM EDT

Er, no it isn't. - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:47:46 PM EDT

Serial changes - (admin) - (50) - May 22, 2004, 06:30:33 PM EDT

"Bound" fields - (tablizer) - (49) - May 22, 2004, 07:28:51 PM EDT

No, no integration. - (admin) - (48) - May 22, 2004, 07:52:15 PM EDT

re: No integration - (tablizer) - (47) - May 23, 2004, 12:47:13 AM EDT

re: No integration - (admin) - (46) - May 23, 2004, 09:32:39 AM EDT

So you want to see an Iwethey clone? - (tablizer) - (45) - May 23, 2004, 02:15:24 PM EDT

I'd prefer you answer the points first. - (admin) - (44) - May 23, 2004, 03:35:37 PM EDT

We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (tablizer) - (43) - May 23, 2004, 05:24:01 PM EDT

Re: We need code, not brochure-talk, to settle this - (admin) - (42) - May 23, 2004, 06:37:27 PM EDT

Is that part of iwethey? -NT - (tablizer) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 11:49:04 PM EDT

Yes. -NT - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 12:30:00 AM EDT

questions and comments - (tablizer) - (39) - May 24, 2004, 12:41:13 PM EDT

Reading comprehension? - (ben_tilly) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 02:50:12 AM EDT

What is your complaint? - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 12:39:54 PM EDT

Why not eliminate everything that is only a bonus? - (ben_tilly) - May 24, 2004, 08:38:02 PM EDT

Then don't bother. - (admin) - (16) - May 24, 2004, 08:27:08 AM EDT

Fine. It is not "bloated". Just unknown. - (tablizer) - (15) - May 24, 2004, 01:23:24 PM EDT

That's all I needed. - (admin) - (8) - May 24, 2004, 03:12:45 PM EDT

Probably not telling you anything you don't already know... - (ChrisR) - (5) - May 24, 2004, 02:59:25 PM EDT

I take it you mean... - (admin) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 03:02:11 PM EDT

Yep = That's what I meant - (ChrisR) - May 24, 2004, 03:09:53 PM EDT

Re: Probably not telling you anything you don't already know - (JimWeirich) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 04:55:09 PM EDT

My memory is too taxed - (ChrisR) - May 24, 2004, 05:12:43 PM EDT

Memory Lane - (tablizer) - May 24, 2004, 05:16:58 PM EDT

re: That's all I needed. - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 04:40:18 PM EDT

re: That's all I needed. - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 04:46:37 PM EDT

Caching - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 02:48:25 PM EDT

re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 04:30:30 PM EDT

re: Login checks and declarative processing - (admin) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 04:40:47 PM EDT

re re: Login checks and declarative processing - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 05:11:26 PM EDT

Re: Login checks and declarative processing (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 06:01:48 PM EDT

I18N - (admin) - (18) - May 24, 2004, 12:50:01 PM EDT

You are WRONG! - (tablizer) - (17) - May 24, 2004, 02:15:41 PM EDT

My my, I touched a raw nerve, apparently. - (admin) - (16) - May 24, 2004, 02:31:42 PM EDT

Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (tablizer) - (15) - May 24, 2004, 04:24:23 PM EDT

Re: Grep is no substitute for clean, normalized data - (admin) - (14) - May 24, 2004, 04:35:47 PM EDT

Depends on the scale - (tablizer) - (13) - May 24, 2004, 05:00:31 PM EDT

You've never used CVS either, have you? -NT - (FuManChu) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 05:15:10 PM EDT

No, only MS sourcesafe -NT - (tablizer) - (2) - May 24, 2004, 05:50:18 PM EDT

*shudder* - (admin) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 06:02:42 PM EDT

Not my pickings -NT - (tablizer) - May 25, 2004, 02:10:39 AM EDT

Re: Depends on the scale - (admin) - (8) - May 24, 2004, 05:48:35 PM EDT

no no no - (tablizer) - (7) - May 24, 2004, 06:19:48 PM EDT

Re: no no no - (admin) - (6) - May 24, 2004, 07:02:50 PM EDT

Doing my part to promote right shifting - (ChrisR) - (3) - May 24, 2004, 07:13:59 PM EDT

"Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 07:24:31 PM EDT

Re: "Oh goody, a new framework for xmas!" - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 07:27:18 PM EDT

Internationalization (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 07:25:32 PM EDT

admin - (tablizer) - (1) - May 24, 2004, 07:38:16 PM EDT

Resource files (new thread) - (admin) - May 24, 2004, 08:02:47 PM EDT

Re: response 4 - (admin) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 05:16:20 PM EDT

Lock-in is lock-in - (tablizer) - (2) - May 22, 2004, 06:22:18 PM EDT

Query caching is a feature of JDBC - (admin) - (1) - May 22, 2004, 06:32:27 PM EDT

Yes - (tablizer) - May 22, 2004, 07:31:27 PM EDT

Re: response 5 - (admin) - May 22, 2004, 07:49:36 PM EDT

Most of those are problems, not solutions. - (FuManChu) - (8) - May 21, 2004, 04:34:44 PM EDT

intense DBA and RDBMS bashing - (tablizer) - (7) - May 22, 2004, 07:36:21 PM EDT

..heh. Only because they deserve it. ;) - (FuManChu) - (6) - May 22, 2004, 06:19:58 PM EDT

re: Only because they deserve it. - (tablizer) - (5) - May 22, 2004, 07:42:16 PM EDT

I assume you already expect my response: - (FuManChu) - (4) - May 22, 2004, 08:05:06 PM EDT

I will agree that... - (tablizer) - (3) - May 22, 2004, 09:25:34 PM EDT

I've never claimed that _every_ O-R mapper is chicken soup - (FuManChu) - (2) - May 23, 2004, 10:12:20 AM EDT

Most people can at least read Python within 5 minutes. -NT - (admin) - (1) - May 23, 2004, 10:50:37 AM EDT

Whatever -NT - (tablizer) - May 23, 2004, 11:45:33 PM EDT

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I don't know what "puerile twaddle" means.
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