Post #156,080
5/20/04 1:55:48 PM
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Background info on issues WRT medical insurance.
I'm writing this up as kind of an excercise, kind of a "hmm, this might go somewhere" thing - do me a favor and rip it to shreds. :D
Back during the '90s, when President Clinton was attempting to tackle the juggernaut that was health care reform, the rallying cry of the anti-nationalized healthcare system was:
"If we go to a national healthcare system, there will be rationed services, limited doctor choices, only the wealthy will get quality treatment, and it will cost way too much."
Sound familiar to anybody? That's the environment we\ufffdre in right now.
To understand the current predicament, we have to step back to World War II to see the roots of our current health care system. Prior to WWII, employers for the most part did not offer insurance as part of their employment packages. During WWII, in order to prevent economic disruption due to labor shortages (because of the draft) wage controls were enacted. This prevented employers from offering higher rates than other employers to lure quality employees. The way that businesses snuck around this was by offering benefit packages, such as retirement accounts and medical insurance. These packages caught on, and soon enough it was an expected perk as part of employment.
In many other countries (most of Europe, Canada) they went the other route. Health care, both basic and critical, was developed into a nationalized enterprise, allowing all citizens access to treatment, regardless of social class or income.
Now, the current problem, as I see it, is related to three issues:
1. Stock market decline 2. High rates of malpractice 3. Greed on the part of the insurance and pharmaceutical industry
Part 1: The Stock Market and the Insurance Industry
Insurance companies are, for the most part, for-profit companies. Their sole mission, as is the mission of all businesses, is to produce profit for the owners of the company. Any byproduct of a company that happens to benefit anybody else is a happy coincidence, and not guaranteed. (Yes, a company that doesn't provide a good that its customers want will rapidly go out of business. This does not mean that their primary goal is to provide that service, but to convince people that they are providing the service while separating those people from their money in the most efficient manner possible. It's not a cynical world view; it's just the fact of how companies work in a capitalistic environment.) Now, when an insurance company takes in cash in the form of the monthly fees paid by you and your employer, they don\ufffdt just stick that cash under a mattress \ufffd they invest it somewhere, then sell it off when they need access to cash to pay doctors and hospitals. They try to drag out the latter part of the process by burying doctors in paperwork, denying claims for frivolous reasons (I've personally experienced this several times), and otherwise taking as long as possible to compensate the actual healthcare field for work done. Generally, insurance companies pay out to the doctor 60-90 days after the service is rendered, at least according to what I\ufffdve been able to glean from my medical bills.
During the mid to late 90's, this place was heavily in the stock market. Insurance companies were making huge gains, allowing them to pay record dividends to their investors. This also helped to hold the cost of insurance down a bit. However, it had the tragic side effect of making insurance companies into investment companies instead of insurance companies. Pressure was on the companies (as it was on virtually every other industry during that period) to produce astounding business growth numbers, and astounding quarterly growth estimates. This had the effect of putting an upward pressure on premiums received, and a downward pressure (through denial of coverage, increased paperwork, etc.) on payouts. When the stock market tanked in 2001, since so many insurance companies had their money tied up in the market, premium costs swelled to make up the difference, and services offered were cut even more.
Part 2: Malpractice
A lot of arguments recently about malpractice insurance rates being out of control are made these days as grounds for tort reform. However, reforming the laws regarding liability won\ufffdt resolve the underlying issue which is twofold. One, insurance rates in general are through the roof thanks to the stock market tanking, and two, doctors ARE actually making more mistakes than before. One reason that is being bandied about is the current system (insurance companies deciding treatment) does not allow the doctor time or resources to make proper choices about their patients.
Apparently the same pattern (high malpractice rates, high insurance rates, complaints from doctors about malpractice insurance putting them out of business and demanding tort reform) occurred in the '70s, but that time, significant tort reform was not enacted, the rates of malpractice dropped as doctors became more cautious, and the system recovered.
Part 3: Greed on the part of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries.
And now we come to the capstone. I don't remember what year it was, but fairly recently (late '90s/early '00s (what the heck do we CALL the '00s? The Naughts?)) rules were changed to allow pharmaceutical companies to advertise their wares on television. Cut to '04, and we have Freddy Mercury spinning in his grave as middle-aged overweight men dance in the street to the strains of \ufffdWe are the Champions\ufffd at the thought of taking Viagra. (Ok, Freddy might have popped a few himself if they had been available to him, but that's neither here nor there.) Advertising budgets for the pharmaceutical companies are around twice what they spend on research and development. Profits are at an all-time record high. Yet, the pharmaceutical companies are using these profits to push for increased regulation of their industry, preventing cheaper alternatives from reaching the market, denying aid to countries which are trying to keep their own people from dying off wholesale (*COUGH*Africa*COUGH*) and just generally trying to lock down their "captive" market in any way possible.
There is also a huge inefficiency in the process, as the profit motive pushes companies to look for cures (hugely profitable) over vaccines (not very profitable, but much more useful for society at large) and to look for cures to high-interest diseases (such as impotence \ufffd how much money do you think the maker of Viagra makes?) instead of critical diseases, which don\ufffdt have the "sex" appeal that high-interest medications do.
Also of note is the increase in the number of "luxury" medications \ufffd medications which treat conditions that don\ufffdt really need pharmaceutical treatment, or using said medication as a stopgap in lieu of actually dealing with the issue. Parents medicate their kids into submission with Prozac and Ritalin, delaying their emotional issues until the kids are out on their own instead of taking the time to be a good parent. Depressed people are a favorite target of pharmaceutical advertisers \ufffd "take this pill, and you'll feel better! No need for therapy! Start living today!" You have no idea how convincing that argument can be to a depressed person, as they wander into the doctor's office, demand a prescription for the latest snake-oil cure, and end up doing irreparable harm to themselves, instead of actually dealing with the issues of depression through counseling.
That\ufffds enough for now \ufffd I've identified what I see as the major problems in the health care system, and when I get a few more minutes, I\ufffdll post my philosophical look on how the interaction between church, state, and private enterprise should be balanced \ufffd and how that plays into the medical system, and ultimately, my ideas on how to reform the system.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #156,093
5/20/04 2:45:17 PM
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couple of points I have made before
The gutting of the public health department. We need to build these resources up and staff them with interns and nursing students to take care of bumps bruises sniffles vacinations and preventative health all a sliding fee scale. This would take a large chunk out of the issues. Emergency room flooding at not for profit health centers would go down along with the associated costs. thanx, bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #156,102
5/20/04 3:29:06 PM
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Sorry, could not resist
This belongs in open forum, not in this thread. But the association in my brain was just too strong.
[link|http://www.babalublog.com/archives/000629.html|You must register. Period.]
--
Buy high, sell sober.
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Post #156,111
5/20/04 4:25:29 PM
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Have you read "Betrayal of Trust" yet? You should...
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #156,332
5/22/04 10:40:43 AM
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Having worked in several Health/Pharma systems....
I'll answer yours and add my own:
1. Stock Market and Insurance. You are dead on with this idea. But, it's not just Insurance that is in trouble for speculating in the stock market. It's just about every large company. I work for a large drug wholesaler (buy from manufacturer, sell to drug stores, grocery stores) and our profits are influenced in large part by what the stock market does. It was the same with the airline I worked for. Because of competition, there wasn't much we could do with the price, but we could take people's money early, then make up the difference in investments. So, when the market is down, these companies cut costs in horrific fashion, to deal not only with lack of margin, but also with their market losses. We have become a nation of people and companies who want to "gamble" to get rich.
Now, for the next part. Insurance as a "for profit" company. I also agree here. The greed of insurance companies is incredible. And, by having insurance as "for profit", they are incented to deny coverage, cut coverage, and limit coverage as much as possible. And that does not help with the health of people. We could probably find/treat many early cancers if everyone were required to have some non-invasive MRI/scan on their body every 2-3 years. If we looked at the patterns in these cancers, we might even "discover" that we're killing ourselves on french fries, and maybe even Diet Coke. (things the big food companies don't want us to find out)
The problem here is greed, and I think there are 2-3 solutions. First, limit the compensation of all executives (not just insurance companies) to about 10 million dollars a year (stock options/everything). I don't mind them getting rich, I just don't want them getting "filthy" rich. I think there should be more "mutual" insurance companies where the owners and the beneficiaries are the same. Large companies like American Airlines self-insure, and hire a management insurance company. Smaller companies could be pooled (not by the 10's or 20's) by the 1000's to create large-enough entities to self insure. I don't like a complete government solution because of the inefficiecies of it, but if insurance was non-profit and small companies were pooled and it was regulated, we could be OK.
2. Malpractice
This is where I think we could make the largest difference. I'm all for paying someone who has been treated badly by a doctor, or is injured because of a medical mistake. And I don't think that "actual" damages should be limited. If you lose your house because you can no longer work, because of a medical error, then you should well compensated. However, I think punitive damages should NOT be awarded to the injured, but to the government. (I believe this for ALL punitive damages). Some of the money should be set aside to handle others injured by this doctor AND the rest should be collected to provide healthcare for the poor. This would put BILLIONS every year in punitive damages into the healthcare system. Some could even be used for auditors to prevent future abuses.
In the current system, very little money is available for oversight and many hospital errors are caused because the auditors only come every 4 years for a good hospital, and every 2 for an average one, and every year for a bad one.
3. This last one is Pharmacy greed, but it's also pure politics. Many meds that are on the market today don't save the life of someone, they just "enhance the lifestyle". Also, pharmaceuticals know their business and "treat conditions" rather than cure people. This is difficult, because I think as we learn more about the human body, drugs SHOULD be customized to the DNA of each person to make them more effective. Yet, because of the expense of it, it probably won't be done. Even the U.S. Medicare system pays for drugs for "erectile dysfunction", but won't pay for blood pressure medicine or arthritis. This is just politics and messed-up priorities. Actually, from someone who works for a drug wholesaler, we make our highest margin on generics. But, I understand the arguments that the drug manufacturers make about the cost of research and development. I think the U.S. does need better drug prices, and the rest of the world needs to pay more. So maybe we need to make the world share the costs, instead of us bearing most of the R&D costs. As a country, we could deny patent renewals, or even shorten the time a patent is effective.
Also, understand that drug research is crap shoot. You don't know going in if a particular med will have side effects in humans. You have to do years of studies to see if it might. It is very expensive. So, how do you do it at low cost? I don't really know. This is a tough one. You might try thousands of combinations before finding something that appears to work, then find that it has side effects in .01% of the population and you have to pull it.
Here are some ideas of mine to help the healthcare system:
1. I think we should give individuals more power/responsibility over their health. For patients who are relatively educated, or are on "routine medicine", we should not require a doctor's prescription, or allow a prescription to be written for a long period of time. Prescriptions should be transferable, easily. For example, I've been on blood pressure medicine for about 12 years. I have to visit the doctor every 6 months or so to get a new prescription. He only does labs about every 2 years, to check for blood levels. Why shouldn't I get a prescription for 2 years for my med? Why can't the prescription be encrypted on a "smart card" and be portable to any pharmacy I chose? If my kids have an ear infection, if the answer is an ear culture and anti-biotic, why can't I go directly to a lab, have a tech swab out the ear, do the culture, and then let me get my own anti-biotics? In doing this, you sign an agreement that you agree that you are responsible for your own healthcare with respect to these procedures and can't sue the doctor. Doctors could still be used for serious cases, but the routine stuff we would handle ourselves. Especially for those who would be willing to take responsibility for themselves, and educate themselves (for example, on drug interactions).
2. I think we should limit the top-end compensations for all executives to about 10 million per year for everything. We should require companies to limit their exposure by limiting their investment in the stock market to 25-50% of their available funds, and the rest would have to be in other mechanisms (bonds and such). Companies should have some margin in their products and not sell at cost, so even when the market tanks they are still making money. Too many companies' future profits are tied to what the Dow and Nasdaq are going to do in the next 12 months.
3. We all should reduce our debt, personal, corporate, and federal. This is going to blow up in the next 10 years and it won't be pretty. I'm amazed a what companies loan for these days. Maybe if we all "couldn't pay our debts", they would tighten up the lending practices.
4. I think we should donate more to charities and churches and ask them to DO MORE to help the poor in this and other countries, and NOT build another Crystal Cathedral. If we Christian seriously helped the poor instead of building fancy church buildings, maybe the world would think differently of us. By the way, two of the large non-profit Hospitals in the D/FW area are Baylor Medical System (Baptist) and Methodist Healthcare system. The sad part is that the church stopped supporting them long ago, and they are just non-profit businesses now. In the late 1800 and early 1900's they were teaching hospitals and helped the poor.
5. We all need to seriously exercise more and watch what we eat. I spend WAY TOO MUCH TIME at the computer, so I'm 285 pounds, 6' 1". My wife spends NO time at the computer, she's 5' 7", 125 pounds. Maybe if fat were taxed? Maybe if I was fined for not exercising 4-5 times per week.
6. Finally, if we're not going to allow patients to take care of themselves in many things, then we need to graduate about 4x as many doctors and nurses as we do today. We need to be expanding medical schools and nursing programs like crazy. I don't think we absolutely HAVE to do this, but we need to be expanding over the next 10 years or so.
My thoughts
Glen
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Post #157,110
5/26/04 7:00:17 PM
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Part II: The Social Contract
For a lot of what I say to make sense, you have to understand that I look at society\ufffds structures sometimes as meeting three categories of needs for each person:
Body \ufffd Basic survival needs Spirituality \ufffd Existential needs, why am I here, what is my purpose, etc. Mind \ufffd \ufffdToys\ufffd, entertainment, etc. That which is not necessary to survival, and is not related to spiritual needs.
Each of these three needs are met through three basic structures. I use the following words not in their traditional sense, but in a sense I will define as I proceed:
Needs of the body are met by the \ufffdgovernment\ufffd social structure. Spiritual needs are met by the \ufffdreligion\ufffd social structure. Note that for this purpose, I consider agnosticism and atheism \ufffdreligions\ufffd. Needs of the mind are met by the \ufffdbusiness\ufffd social structure.
Please note that I consider all three of these needs to be important. Without nurturing the body, we wither, sicken, and die. Without nurturing the spirit, we loose focus and purpose in life. Without nurturing the mind through play and entertainment, we come bored and withdrawn.
Each of these three needs can be provided by structures that support one of the other needs, but there is inefficiency inherent to each agency providing needs in a category other than their own. Ideally, each agency should stick to covering its own set of needs as best it can. Human nature being what it is, any agency attempting to fill one role will always attempt to move into the other two roles, with usually disastrous results.
Our natural state (I.E. before having a society) is one of bare minimum survival. Basic needs are met only if the individual is capable of meeting those needs themselves, or if they are able to convince another individual to help them meet those needs. Spiritual and Mental needs are met at a bare minimum, if at all. The seeds of the future, however, are planted here, as individuals agree to work together to spread out the work of achieving survival for all.
This, in my opinion, is the foundation of government. A government is not about making a profit, or providing a meaning to life \ufffd it is about guaranteeing that the basic needs of the people are met so that the other two needs may be met as well. In other words, it is a social contract, a deal which says in essence \ufffdyou will not fall below this point, and if you do, we\ufffdll lift you up to that point. After all, some day it may be one of us that needs your help in getting back up.\ufffd
Law enforcement (property, contract, etc. \ufffd we\ufffdre not just talking about cops \ufffdn robbers, especially in a day when a man with a briefcase can steal more money than a man with a gun) Social safety net (basic housing, basic food) Environmental protection Emergency services Basic health care Basic education Community infrastructure (transit, roads, bridges)
In a way, it can be said that the \ufffdgovernment\ufffd\ufffds role is to counteract the tendency of people to look out for themselves first to the exclusion of all others. Its purpose is not to nullify this entirely \ufffd some conflict is necessary for real progress to occur.
\ufffdBusiness\ufffd as I define it is the production of luxury items for us to \ufffdplay\ufffd with. A good test is \ufffdis this service or good necessary to my day-to-day survival in today\ufffds society?\ufffd If not, then that service or good should be produced in a \ufffdbusiness\ufffd context. I need to be able to get to a place of employment every day and return to a safe place to rest at night. I\ufffdd like to live in a 5 bedroom two story+basement with three acres of forest around it five minutes from work. There\ufffds a definite difference between the two at that extreme, but finding the dividing line is a very difficult task.
I think \ufffdSpirituality\ufffd is pretty self-explanatory on its own \ufffd and I\ufffdm going to stop here for today, because I think this gets across the gist of my ideas behind where I\ufffdm headed with medical insurance reform. In fact, I\ufffdm willing to bet if you read this missive, you know exactly where I\ufffdm headed.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #157,118
5/26/04 7:59:49 PM
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Also would like to discuss what you call basic healthcare
does that cover coughs colds broken arm leg catastrophic health items or does that also cover all kinds of new drugs to keep people alive where they would have died of natural causes 5 years ago? example, when Zocar first came out it was $200 per month, I decided that I would increase my life insurance as that was cheaper and take my chances. That was a rational decision. That was 15 years ago. It has paid off in my mind. Now when I have seen fat people sitting in a neurosurgeon's office with sweaty palms as the syptom and welfare covered the tab I find that abusive. So please define what triage will be used to separate needful from wantful medicine. thanx, bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #157,151
5/26/04 10:17:25 PM
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That's in part III
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Post #157,160
5/27/04 12:41:05 AM
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Disagree with your "Social Contract"
It's part of what I disagree with.
The main function of government should be to protect the natural borders of the country.
It should also protect and assist in the building of the infrastructure of the country.
It should ensure fair competition in the business infrastructure of the country.
It should protect industry within the country, and ensure fair and equitable trade and negotiations with other countries.
The functions of government should not include providing for my healthcare, social security, or welfare.
That being said, I also believe strongly in charity, that we are responsible for our fellow man, but that those donations should be voluntary, not compulsive. And we should be more than willing to donate.
The problem with our country is that the government is taxing us so heavily that we can no longer donate freely.
If you add up your sales tax, income tax, social security contributions, gas tax, excise tax, and property tax, I think you would that we're probably paying out about 30-40% of our income in taxes. And the government still runs a huge budget deficit.
100 years ago, we did not have an income tax, social security, and socialized health care. All of that occurred in this century.
So, is the government spending our money efficiently? What do you guys think? Do you think they would spend healthcare dollars from larger taxes any more efficently than the market would? I think not.
However, I think socialized medicine is probably inevitable in this country, because medicine has done a wonderful job of pricing itself out of the market. That being said, if we can provide large pools of private insurers for small companies and the poor, then it would be preferable to a large national "single payer" plan.
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Post #157,175
5/27/04 9:10:06 AM
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actually there was socialized health care 100 years ago
If you research on the spanish flu epidemic of 1918 and NYC you will find a public health infrastructure with docs, nurses etc with better coverage than todays pay as you go infrastructure. thanx, bill
Time for Lord Stanley to get a Tan questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #157,197
5/27/04 10:26:22 AM
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Your title and body do not match
A working public health infrastructure is a very different beast from socialized healthcare. What you describe is that we had a good public health system in 1918. Not socialized healthcare.
The difference is that healthcare involves caring for the sick while public health involves steps to address health-threats to the community. Public health includes things like clean water, making restaurants meet sanitation standards, vaccination programs, public education efforts, etc.
As an example of the difference, the SARS epidemic was solved through public health measures (contact tracing and quarantine). Health care efforts were notably ineffective. In fact from a public health perspective the main reason to provide health care to people with SARS rather than just shooting them is that you're going to get better compliance if you give people hope that they have better odds of surviving if they report their symptoms honestly. (Public health officials are very interested in figuring out what steps will improve public compliance.)
Until Medicare, the USA didn't have any form of socialized healthcare (and now only has it in a poor form). However the US public health system in the USA got started in the 19th century.
Incidentally the arguments for a good public health system are far more compelling than for universal healthcare. For one thing, public health by the nature of the beast cannot be delivered privately. For another, public health is far more cost effective than healthcare and therefore is a justifiable investment.
Cheers, Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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Post #157,190
5/27/04 10:06:46 AM
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Again, you should read "Betrayal of Trust"
It would add "public health" to your list of basic needs that have to be provided by government, and would also open your eyes to the fact that public health and health care are very different things.
Another book recommend: [link|http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/OLSLOX.html|The Logic of Collective Action]. Because collective action is what you're talking about. And no theory of how we should be governed is going to be very realistic unless you are aware of phenomena like "regulatory capture" and have accounted for it. (Else you'll come up with an ideal system that never has a hope of working.)
Cheers, Ben
To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20|Nebraska Supreme Court]
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