Post #15,478
10/28/01 4:24:01 AM
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Civilian casualties
Considering the State Department's diatribe against Israel last week about civilian casualties, I think the US State Department should issue the following statement condemning the actions of the US governemnt:
"We deeply deplore the killing of innocent Afghans by US troops, US troops should immediately withdraw from Afhganistan, violence just breeds more violence, we need to stop the cycle of violence and get back to the bargaining table".
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Post #15,480
10/28/01 7:20:55 AM
10/28/01 10:35:59 AM
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Let's Make a Deal
In the paragraphs below, I do not mean to imply you think we should be making a deal with Al Qaeda, only asking you to play devil's advocate of what such a negotiation might look like. So you are the State Dept. here.
If you could get down to the bargaining table with bin Laden and Al Qaeda, what are the terms of the bargain you are willing to strike?
I'll give you bin Laden's opening position: I want you (the U.S.) to completely end support for the Royal Assholes in Saudi-Land. I also want you to completely end support for the State of Israel and to stand back if we decide to destroy it. I want you to completely withdraw from the Persian Gulf and the Arabian Peninsula. And I want you to remove any support of Egypt and Pakistan and remove any troops and all other support in Uzbekistan and Tajikistan and end any agreements you have with those countries. Also, do not even think about supporting India in Kashmir.
In addition, I want you to stop sending you TV signals to Muslim youth corrupting their values. I want your multinational companies out of Muslim lands. I want your Christian missionaries out of Muslim lands. In short, I want all your influence in Muslim lands closed down.
Accept this, and we shall have peace in our times. Whaddya say?
Gerard Allwein
Edited by gtall
Oct. 28, 2001, 10:35:59 AM EST
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Post #15,490
10/28/01 11:06:58 AM
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Re: You went to school with OBL ???
How else could you know him so well ( V G Grin)
A good assesment
Cheers
Doug
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Post #15,510
10/28/01 6:17:04 PM
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Re: You went to school with OBL ???
I...umm...have this psychic connection with His Grand OverblownNess. We channel on Fridays when the moon is right through our beards. Hillary is said to be jealous now that Eleanor isn't speaking to her.
Gerard Allwein
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Post #15,499
10/28/01 4:23:46 PM
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Gurlz.. you forgot Gurlz!
Correcting the minor provisions you must agree to for peace in our time (if you weren't such insufferable nit-picky, gleeful* persecutors of bearded Prophets):
* that's Another one - too much Happiness, Singing! even - with you #&^*@ psalm-singing smiling-faced despicable unsolemn bastards.
Article G (Gurlz) amended:
No more cheerleading in public, especially in those skimpy costumes, known to inflame the disgustingly sexual passions of your degenerated males (We *know* Our degenerated males: and treat our concupiscent disposable properly-wrapped females accordingly).
1A) No underwear ads in your trashy, suggestive leering magazines which expose all that expanse of erotic, sensual umm attractive *flesh* .. as if to suggest to the led by er nose.. lascivious reader:
hmm, what do you suppose is Under that 4 mg/in\ufffd filmy, flimsy translucent suggestive fabric? Shown in daylight!
2A) No more speaking without being spoken to, leaving the house without a male protector, seeing randy doctors of either sex who might want you to Take Off those filmy, inciteful unmentionables - Unless! aforementioned perusers are merely Allah-minded Believers, seeking evidence of The Mark of the Debbil along, within and around those - hideously warm disgusting locations. (Then it's OK; invite your anointed male friends to make sure that *nothing* is overlooked)
We shall have further additions to \ufffd G. for distribution at the Peace Instructions Meeting at the designated cave.
Mullahs for Moderation
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Post #15,512
10/28/01 6:30:46 PM
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Playing Mr. State Dept.
Ashton, I'll take State Dept's side in this one:
Nonsense, we have nothing against beards unless they are connected to Castro.
* that's Another one - too much Happiness, Singing! even - with you #&^*@ psalm-singing smiling-faced despicable unsolemn bastards.
Sorry, we're talking about your lands here, we don't care if you swing from the chandeliers naked, just as long as we don't have to see it. If we want have a ho-down (know what I mean? Hehehehehe), that's our business, stop peeping.
No more cheerleading in public, especially in those skimpy costumes, known to inflame the disgustingly sexual passions of your degenerated males (We *know* Our degenerated males: and treat our concupiscent disposable properly-wrapped females accordingly).
Again, it's our business what we do with our cheerleaders, what you do with your cheerleaders, we do NOT, let me repeat that, we do NOT want to know...and, Praise Allah, please don't let us see.
1A) No underwear ads in your trashy, suggestive leering magazines which expose all that expanse of erotic, sensual umm attractive *flesh* .. as if to suggest to the led by er nose..lascivious reader:
Again, what we do on our side of the cultural divide is our business. You only have to be concerned about what your young men are wearing, watching, etc. By the way, how do you know about all this expanse of flesh?
2A) No more speaking without being spoken to, leaving the house without a male protector, seeing randy doctors of either sex who might want you to Take Off those filmy, inciteful unmentionables - Unless! aforementioned perusers are merely Allah-minded Believers, seeking evidence of The Mark of the Debbil along, within and around those - hideously warm disgusting locations. (Then it's OK; invite your anointed male friends to make sure that *nothing* is overlooked)
Yer not getting this son, treat your women as you wish. We will treat ours in whatever way we deem appropriate, and Allah be Praised, please don't tell them that, we have to live with'em.
Gerard Allwein
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Post #15,515
10/28/01 9:00:01 PM
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Re: ...how do you know about all this expanse of flesh?
Let me guess. Ashton is into watching those belly dancers.
Alex
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
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Post #15,518
10/28/01 9:56:16 PM
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wrong verb :)
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #15,554
10/29/01 11:10:39 AM
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No. Beards are Un-American.*
Lenin had a "beard". Marx had a "beard". As you point out, Castro has a "beard".
OTOH, Gabby Hayes had "whiskers".
Mikem
*Paraphrased from a very old bit by George Carlin.
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Post #15,524
10/28/01 11:32:36 PM
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Deal
"Thank you for your offer. My counter offer: an anthrax aerosol (pffffffffft). Enjoy."
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #15,532
10/29/01 1:55:49 AM
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Taliban & PA
Key difference: the Taliban has shown no willingness, credibility, or trustworthyness to suggest that they can be relied on to work with the US in neutralizing ObL. All indications are that the Taliban, ObL, and Al Qaeda are hopelessly confounded. There's been no credible visible effort on the part of the Taliban to bring to justice those who've committed atrocities from the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, the Cole, various failed plots in the US and elsewhere, or the September 11 attacks. Moreover, there is no territorial dispute between the US and Afghanistan -- the attacks on the US and other nations have been in the name of terrorist ideology, no more, no less. This is shear lawlessness, the definition of a rogue state.
Israel and Palestine share a common land, and will have to work out a common destiny (note that this need not be peaceful, though this is the hope). For better or worse, there are at least large elements within the Palestinian Authority who have shown a willingness to work with Israel. Both Israel and Palestine have suffered greatly under the conditions of the past fifty years, and both have committed gross atrocities on the other. Many of the acts appear to be of isolated individuals, and in cases, the authorities have brought individuals to justice for acts of terror. Credit to the Israelies: I recall more instances in which they've prosecuted their people than of the PA. Credit to the Palestinian Authority: it has not invaded Israeli-held regions with tanks and armed forces.
However, Israel has the upper hand in this asymmetric battle. The PA are pawns in the hands of the many enemies of Israel. Too, Israel's made peace with several of its neighbors, noteably Jordon and Egypt.
I'm not claiming there's an easy solution, anyone with half a brain, half a heart, and one half-blind eye can see that. But each side must step down its rhetoric and offensives. Israel should limit its use of military force, preferably to defensive actions. The PA absolutely must make credible, and effective, efforts to turn over terrorists acting in the name of the Palestinians to either Israel or an internation tribunal for justice.
Your analogy, however, is grossly false.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #15,534
10/29/01 3:56:01 AM
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Actually it is very similar
The PA has shown no willingness, credibility, or trustworthyness to suggest that they can be relied on. Let us look at the facts. Under the Oslo accords Yasir Arafat swore off terror and violence and promised to fight terror. Has he kept that promise? Israel withdrew from Gaza and parts of the West Bank and provided money for Arafat, in return his authority uses textbooks which are blatantly anti-semitic and call for the destruction of Israel. Under Oslo, Arafat was limited to 17,000 lightly armed policemen. Somehow this has turned into 6 heavily armed security organizations with almost 50,000 members. Last summer, Barak, the Prime Minister of Israel, offered Arafat prictically everything, A state on %95 of the land, and a compromise in Jerusalem, Arafat's answer was violence.
The fact is that Arafat seems reasonable at times when he speaks in english. However, he is never reasonable when he speaks to his own people in Arabic. Right now, why should Israel talk to Arafat. Either he has lost control and cannot control the groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas, etc. if so, there is no point in talking to him because he is not in control. If he is in control and can reign in these groups, that means that he could have stopped them a year ago before the situation deteriorated, and therefore is responsible for all the suicide bombings, shootings, (btw, the shootings yesterday were done by PA policemen)etc, of the past year, if so why should Israel trust him?
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Post #15,535
10/29/01 4:39:24 AM
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PA is willing and credible?
Read the following words "from the horses mouth" (of course all in Arabic so those in the West wouldn't see or hear them)and tell me if the PA is any more credible then the Taliban:
Here are the words of Faisal Husseini a so called "moderate" Palestinian
[link|http://www.memri.org/sd/SP23601.html|Interview with Faisal Husseini]
"The Oslo Accords Were a Trojan Horse; The Strategic Goal is the Liberation of Palestine from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea
...
Similarly, if we agree to declare our state over what is now only 22% of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza \ufffd our ultimate goal is [still] the liberation of all historical Palestine from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea, even if this means that the conflict will last for another thousand years or for many generations."
This is what the PA broadcasts on state sponsored TV
[link|http://www.memri.org/sd/SP27601.html|Friday Sermon on Palestinian Television]
"Our belief is that this war, between us and the Jews, will continue to escalate until we vanquish the Jews and enter Jerusalem as conquerors, [and] enter Jaffa as conquerors. We are not merely expecting a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital; we are heralding [the creation of] an Islamic caliphate with Jerusalem as its capital\ufffd"
Following are excerpts from the Friday (August 17, 2001) sermon broadcast live on Palestinian TV from the Sheik 'Ijlin mosque in Gaza. The preacher is Sheik Isma'il Aal Ghadwan:
[link|www.memri.org/sd/SP26101.html|PA TV Friday Sermon Calls for Jihad and Martyrdom]
"This good news... has passed down to our people who still make great sacrifices, defending the honor of the Islamic nation. The sacrifice of convoys of martyrs [will continue] until Allah grants us victory very soon. The willingness for sacrifice and for death we see amongst those who were cast by Allah into a war with the Jews, should not come at all as a surprise..."
"Oh believing brothers, we do not feel a loss... The martyr, if he meets Allah, is forgiven with the first drop of blood; he is saved from the torments of the grave; he sees his place in Paradise; he is saved from the Great Horror [of the day of judgment]; he is given 72 black-eyed women; he vouches for 70 of his family to be accepted to Paradise; he is crowned with the Crown of glory, whose precious stone is better than all of this world and what is in it\ufffd"
The following excerpts, broadcasted on PA TV, are from the Friday sermon [August 3, 2001] given by Sheik Ibrahim
Madhi at the Sheik 'Ijlin Mosque in Gaza:
[link|http://www.memri.org/sd/SP25201.html|Friday Sermon on Palestinian Television]
"Whoever can fight them with his weapons, should go out [to the battle]; whoever can fight them with a machinegun, should go out; whoever can fight them with a sword or a knife, should go out; whoever can fight them with his hands, should go out; This is our destiny. The people who are the most hostile toward the believers are the Jews and the Polytheists... The Jews have exposed their fangs. Nothing will deter them, except the color of their filthy people\ufffds blood; nothing will deter them except for us voluntarily detonating ourselves in their midst. They have nuclear power, but we have the power of the belief in Allah..."
"The Prophet [Muhammad] said: 'The Jews will fight you, and [Allah] will establish you as rulers over them...' We blow them up in Hadera, we blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya, and in this way, Allah establishes us as rulers over these gangs of vagabonds. The Jews fight you, but Allah will establish you as rulers over them. Until the Jew would hide behind a stone or a tree, and the stone or the tree would say: Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, a Jew is hiding behind me, come kill him, with the exception of the Gharqad tree which is the tree of the Jews...'"
"In several years, Allah willing, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, to Jaffa as conquerors. To Haifa as conquerors, to Ashkelon as conquerors. We are certain that victory is near..."
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Post #15,545
10/29/01 8:51:56 AM
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need to plant more Gharqad trees
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #15,547
10/29/01 9:01:45 AM
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What is a Gharqad tree?
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Post #15,550
10/29/01 10:04:05 AM
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You dont read your own links? :)
Oh servant of Allah, a Jew is hiding behind me, come kill him, with the exception of the Gharqad tree which is the tree of the Jews...'"
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #15,779
10/30/01 5:07:55 PM
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Homework assignment
Broaden your mind, bluke.
Post an equal number of equivalent links from the Israeli perspective, showing an equivalent degree of intolerance. Likewise, four tolerant Israeli perspectives, and four tolernat Palestinian perspectives.
I'll get you started with [link|http://freshair.npr.org/guestInfoFA.cfm?name=chrishedges|an interview with Chris Hedges] of The New York Times. He describes a group of Palestinian children, playing on a hill. They are taunted over a loudspeaker by Israeli soldiers. When the children start hurling stones toward the armoured jeep, the soldiers open fire on the children.
I didn't say the PA is right or blameless. There's plenty on both sides to go around. The solution is going to start when both sides can look beyond their own injuries. I strongly encourage you to start the process.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
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Post #15,794
10/30/01 6:51:02 PM
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Trouble seems to be
that we are all partisans for 'our side' (no matter how vague or just plain wrongly-formed is our illusion of 'a side'). When violence starts - so does the hunkering down and the huge pressure for speech to conform. Tribe.
Only in Heinlein exists there a Fairwitness. (my sig. on eBay electronic trades ;-)
Academia is supposed to be a safe haven for such - but we saw the loyalty oaths in the '50s and I predict: coming soon, starting in the Islamic Studies depts. (Perhaps this time we won't emulate the firing of the Russian experts in State [must be Commies] - but maybe Arabic speakers had best prepare to burn notes next?)
deja vu, even in my brief tenure in 'our' illusionary world. We don't learn shit; have to wade through it again and again.
Ashton
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Post #15,841
10/31/01 3:28:52 AM
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No comparison
There is a fundamental difference here. You may find cases where soldiers do things wrong (I seem to recall allegations against Canadian soldiers on a peacekeeping mission), however in the PA the government is sponsoring an incitement campaign against Israel and Jews. The government sponsored TV broadcasts sermons calling for the people to kill Jews, as does the government sponsored newspapers. Do Israeli TV/Radio/Newspapers do the same? In fact, one of the complaints about Israeli radio and TV is that they interview Palestinians and provide a platform for their propaganda (look at what is happening in the US with Bin Laden and Al Jazeera). Read Haaretz, (a popular left-wing Israeli newspaper, you can read it in English www.haaretzdaily.com), some of the columnists for that paper are more critical of Israel then the Palestinians. Where is the Palestinian equivalent? An Israeli growing will hear all these different viewpoints. A simple question, where is the Palestinian equivalent of Peace Now? Throughout the 90's hundreds of thousands of Israelis demonstrated for peace, has such a thing EVER happened in the Arab world? Why is it that while over 70% of Palestinians support suicide bombers against civilians in Israel? Why is it that Palsetinian textbooks repeat all the old anti-semitic slogans. Even after 1+ years of terrorism, the majority of Israelis still wnat peace and are willing to compromise.
There is no question that there are Israelis who hate Arabas etc., the major difference is that the government, press and spiritual leaders condemn these people. When Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (the spiritual leader of the Shas party) called Arabs snakes (btw he explained that he was talking about terrorists not all Arabs), every major politician denounced it including the President and Prime Minister, and it was the topic of discussion in every newspaper and radio program. Have you ever seen a similar reaction to any of these sermons?
After Sept. 11, there were some attacks on Muslims in the US, defacing of mosques etc., does that mean that the US is a racist and anti-Muslim society? The fact is that all the leaders, from President Bush on down condemned these acts and this is the major difference between the US, Israel and the PA.
A challenge for you, find four tolerant Palestinian perspectives.
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