Post #152,519
4/25/04 12:44:23 AM
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Ryongchon, NK explosion crater (34 kB .jpg)
[image|http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040425/i/r1168853009.jpg|0|Explosion Crater|307|410]
It's hard to believe that that big of an explosion could have been an accident, yet if they were trying to kill Kim, if they could arrange such a huge explosion, why couldn't they arrange something that would have spared so many innocent people?
It's very curious.
Regards, Scott.
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Post #152,521
4/25/04 1:01:04 AM
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Conspiracy theories.
Other than here, I haven't seen any commentary about this being an attack against NK's leadership - is there something I'm missing? It does seem extremely messy.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #152,522
4/25/04 1:02:31 AM
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Re: Conspiracy theories.
Apparently Kim's train returning from China would have had to go through that station, but it did so several hours before the explosion. Of course given how paranoid NK is about such things I'm not sure it has been confirmed that he was ever in the area.
I've seen a few conspiracy theorists suggesting it might have been an attempt to kill Kim. But there is so little known about the explosion that it's pure conjecture.
Jay
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Post #152,523
4/25/04 1:16:14 AM
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The Independent in the UK
[link|http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=515021|Here]: In the small community of North Korean defectors in Seoul, a story is circulating that Kim Jong Il, the North's leader, narrowly avoided an assassination attempt by changing his schedule at the last moment. According to the rumours, residents of Ryongchon were not informed of his new schedule. Some 700 children were lined up on the platform to wave flags in greeting but were caught in a blast timed to kill him as his train went past.
Jang Song Gun, an official in charge of rescue efforts, said that the blasts occurred at noon after an electricity pole was knocked down when an oil wagon collided with two other wagons loaded with ammonium nitrate fertiliser. The fire caused by the short circuit ignited the oil wagon and the chemicals as the trucks were being shunted. I don't buy the Rube Goldberg explanation in the 2nd quoted paragraph. The Timothy McVeigh fuel-oil + ammonium nitrate explosive involved mixing the two together, not just having them in proximity. It just feels likely to me that this was a deliberate act, and having Kim pass through there hours before just reinforces that feeling for me. Of course, the truth will likely never be known. Cheers, Scott.
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Post #152,524
4/25/04 1:25:58 AM
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Thanks
Not doubting the theorizing, just looking for a source.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #152,529
4/25/04 2:20:59 AM
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I tend to agree - it seems no way they could know that ...
the accident happened the way they claim - all the witnesses & participants were incinerated at the site so how is it possible for them to come up with a 'detailed' reason as to the cause so quickly (could have held a seance I guess :-)
One possibility being put forward here is that the change in schedules for Kim's train going through disrupted the ricketty N Korea rail system such that in trying to get schedules back to normal, there was a train collision. This is feasible I guess but that crater sure looks mighty big for a train crash no matter what they were carrying. Train blasts in the US (LPG) have typically flattened surrounding buildings but AFAIK haven't dug a massive crater like this one.
Doug M
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Post #152,532
4/25/04 10:54:03 AM
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Correct me if I'm wrong...
...but generally, you don't get a crater unless a)the bomb is honkin' GINORMOUS, or b)the bomb is buried under the earth, or is otherwise propelled into the ground before exploding, I.E., a bomb delivered with a contact fuse.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #152,538
4/25/04 11:19:33 AM
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CNN report from early in the Iraq war, and Defense Link.
[link|http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0303/28/se.02.html|Here]: KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Carol. I am actually standing in what we believed to be a 500-pound bomb crater. As you've seen us all week, we've been reporting from the rooftop of the building we rented in Chamchamal. Now we are actually reporting from the Iraqi position on the hillside that coalition forces hit so fiercely just two days ago.
We hiked up here today with our videophone gear and we got a chance to look around this command bunker and it is just literally obliterated. I don't have an ISB that reaches far enough down into this crater but just to give you an idea of the size, it's probably about 25 feet in circumference and about 15 feet deep. The explosion just must have been massive. And the area surrounding it has also just been blown to bits. Emphasis added. [link|http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Jun1996/960626-N-00000-004.html|Defense Link] story on Dhahran, SA (Khobar Towers) bombing. The picture looks similar to the NK photo, but I would estimate it's only ~ half as deep and covers a much smaller area. The Khobar bomb was a single tanker truck supposedly filled with ammonium nitrate and fuel oil. The NK exposion was big. Regards, Scott.
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Post #152,546
4/25/04 12:33:39 PM
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Yeah, and those probably have a contact fuse...
...meaning they probably get a foot or two into the earth itself before going boom.
Hell, even Hiroshima and Nagasaki didn't leave a crater.
Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
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Post #152,535
4/25/04 11:05:47 AM
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It has happened before
[link|http://www.local1259iaff.org/disaster.html|http://www.local1259...org/disaster.html]
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Post #152,543
4/25/04 11:38:47 AM
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Thanks for the link.
From the linked [link|http://www.local1259iaff.org/report.htm|report]: [Ammonium nitrate] is a crystalline powder, varying in color from almost white to brown. In military use it is mixed (as an oxidizer or promoter of combustion) with TNT in the manufacturer of 'Amatol' which is used primarily as a bursting charge in demolition bombs. In peacetime use it is an excellent source of nitrogen for all crops, and it is one of the most concentrated forms of nitrogen fertilizer (35%N). Ammonium nitrate usually cannot be detonated by heat or friction, it is comparatively insensitive. However, it may be exploded under favorable conditions by severe mechanical shock or by sufficiently heavy initiation of an intermediate explosive agent (such as detonation with a fulminating cap used in exploding dynamite). Fertilizer piles containing this material should not be blasted. A shock may mechanically set up a chain of events which will result in the detonation of the entire mass of material. Shock waves propagated at a velocity of about 5,000 meters per second, or over, appear to be required. Incidents have been reported in laboratories when the material was heated rapidly, but larger quantities in wooden kegs and casks have been exposed to test fires without detonation. However, impure salts may be exploded by relatively high initiation. If ammonium nitrate is mixed with carbonaceous materials. it is exploded more readily. It is sensitized by the presence of explosive substances like nitrocellulose or aromatic nitro compounds, or of non-explosive combustible substances like sulphur, charcoal, flour, sugar, or oil and by incombustible substances such as zinc, cadmium, and copper. Ammonium nitrate is not very flammable at atmospheric temperatures, and is considered an incombustible salt. However, when undergoing decomposition it is accompanied by a series of thermal chemical changes involving heat-absorbing (endothermic, - 41,3000 calories) and subsequent heat evolving (exothermic, + 51,000 calories) reaction and when subjected to temperature of 350 F to 390 F rapid decomposition occurs with production of a whole series of toxic oxides-of-nitrogen gasses (N2O, NO2, N2O2, N2O3 and N2O4) evidenced by brown to orange-reddish fumes. The progressive acceleration of successive changes may result in the production of temperatures as high as 2700 F with pressures of 160,000 pounds per square inch. One initial reaction at more moderate temperatures results in the formation of oxygen, nitrogen and steam, promoting self sustained combustion (reducing the effectiveness of the smothering action of steam.) The Texas City disaster took several hours to develop (smoke was noticed on the Grandcamp a little after 8:00 AM, it exploded at 9:12 AM, the High Flyer exploded at 1:12 AM). I haven't seen anything to indicate that the time fram of the Ryongchon incident. Regards, Scott.
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Post #152,560
4/25/04 5:31:24 PM
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Another scary part of my past
I used to boil ammonium nitrate in a large flask on my stove and put the resulting gas through a 3 stage chemical bath to make nitrous oxide. 2 large hefty bags an hour was produced.
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Post #152,562
4/25/04 6:03:38 PM
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A fan of Sangamon's Principle, eh?
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Post #152,583
4/25/04 9:16:37 PM
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I used to know a guy who's dad . .
. . decided to use a small bag of fertilizer and a detonator to remove a large stump from the far end of the yard. The stump was removed, but having to reglaze the house was an unanticipated additional cost.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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