Believe a distinction is made about 'jihads', though.

Post #14,625 by Ashton 10/22/01 3:14:54 PM Reply	Believe a distinction is made about 'jihads', though. The inner one has to do with (via usual metaphor, "the war against oneself") - becoming ~wise/enlightened. The outer - with pedestrian wars n' stuff. The second is meant to be instituted only via post-graduates of the former. In essence a most 'wise' distinction IMhO - but that doesn't stop those who flunked the inner work from ignoring their own holybook - and behaving quite homo-sappish, in God's Name (natch). (This general idea, across all beliefs - as well as claimed un- non- or anti- such named classes) As to conversion - as it is ever an emotional response to an 'epiphany' - why would we imagine that the methods of logical debate would have much more than slight relevance? A.
Post #14,638 by JayMehaffey 10/22/01 3:53:13 PM Reply	Re: Believe a distinction is made about 'jihads', though. Um, yes. But my point really had nothing to do with the nature of the inner jihad. My point was that the Koran itself doesn't include any reference to it, and thus only certain Muslims accept it at all. Even among those that accept that it exists there are varying degrees of import placed in it. I think that, in some ways, you could draw a parallel between jihad and the trinity in Christianity. For Christians that believe in the trinity, it is an obvious concept and they see evidence of it in the bible. Those that don't believe in the trinity don't see why it exists and don't see any evidence in the bible. The parallel also holds true in that those that believe in the trinity are reaching further in finding evidence in the bible then those that don't follow it. I'm not sure what your point about conversion pertains to, but I would reply that it depends on the person. Jay
Post #14,653 by Ashton 10/22/01 5:29:14 PM Reply	Concede on Koran omission I think, not having read it entirely or recently. Perhaps the rationale is found in the Sharia, supposedly derived from 'principles' - thus subject to even more interpretation.. I pretend no more certainty about 'all the Muslims' than I believe there IS such a thing as, 'The Murican Peepul'. Imagine the actual diversity of individual practitioners (!) I can't. As to emotion in conversion - even in supposedly intellectual pursuits, isn't the Aha! (when you get lucky) rather compelling evidence that a breakthrough is always accompanied by an emotional (pleasure / satisfaction)? That is: I don't believe it is possible to 'convert' (either way) from what is always a combination of mind/heart - without that which many call, an epiphany. (But of course - no one can ever know what another actually 'felt' except by deeming their report an honest one). A.
Post #14,772 by JayMehaffey 10/23/01 10:18:26 AM Reply	Conversion If you limit the domain to religion, I would agree that the majority of conversions involve an epiphany. Heck, from what I've read, every conversion to fundamentalist Christian has involved a strongly emotional and relatively fast conversion. However, this isn't true of conversions to atheism. Some of the experiences of conversion to atheism that I have read have taken a long and meandering path that didn't involve anything that might be called an epiphany. And when it comes to science, I can personally attest to being forced to accept position I didn't like by weight of evidence. Such situation don't involve the joy of discovery and understanding that comes with most science. Jay
Post #14,832 by Ashton 10/23/01 6:27:27 PM Reply	I think that's an astute observation. Nor can I pretend to 'understand' the process by which (say) a once "stark, rapid emotional decision" is later undermined? nibbled at by ducks? .. leading to a sort of "Oh Well - it seemed Right at the time" resignation. Y'know? Maybe another case of, 'all generalizations are false including this one'. I suppose you've just demonstrated that the 'suddenness' may be a most frequent component: but 'mind/heart' may indeed change over time as well, with either more experience or deeper contemplation. Ashton

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