Post #14,585
10/22/01 1:22:12 PM
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Re: I wish I knew.
I thought you where trying to build up an argument for peace between Christians/Jews/Muslims. Abraham may be the only person that is equally and deeply respected in all three religions.
I think I was saying that we are all children of the same Father. Wasn't I?
What about Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, Atheists, American Indians and every other non-Jewish based religion?
The web site you mention as rather liberal, I would describe it as liberal to the point of being revisionist. Not in the sense of intentional fraud but rather in the sense that they accept only their particular and very liberal version of Islam as being valid, and so can freely write off anything they don't happen to agree with as not being really Muslim.
As for the word "Jihad", in my understanding in the Koran it can really only be taken as refering to physical violence. However, in the material associated with the Koran it is often redefined to cover the internal struggal of faith as well as the external struggal of war.
Jay
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Post #14,625
10/22/01 3:14:54 PM
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Believe a distinction is made about 'jihads', though.
The inner one has to do with (via usual metaphor, "the war against oneself") - becoming ~wise/enlightened. The outer - with pedestrian wars n' stuff. The second is meant to be instituted only via post-graduates of the former.
In essence a most 'wise' distinction IMhO - but that doesn't stop those who flunked the inner work from ignoring their own holybook - and behaving quite homo-sappish, in God's Name (natch).
(This general idea, across all beliefs - as well as claimed un- non- or anti- such named classes)
As to conversion - as it is ever an emotional response to an 'epiphany' - why would we imagine that the methods of logical debate would have much more than slight relevance?
A.
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Post #14,638
10/22/01 3:53:13 PM
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Re: Believe a distinction is made about 'jihads', though.
Um, yes. But my point really had nothing to do with the nature of the inner jihad. My point was that the Koran itself doesn't include any reference to it, and thus only certain Muslims accept it at all. Even among those that accept that it exists there are varying degrees of import placed in it.
I think that, in some ways, you could draw a parallel between jihad and the trinity in Christianity. For Christians that believe in the trinity, it is an obvious concept and they see evidence of it in the bible. Those that don't believe in the trinity don't see why it exists and don't see any evidence in the bible. The parallel also holds true in that those that believe in the trinity are reaching further in finding evidence in the bible then those that don't follow it.
I'm not sure what your point about conversion pertains to, but I would reply that it depends on the person.
Jay
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Post #14,653
10/22/01 5:29:14 PM
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Concede on Koran omission
I think, not having read it entirely or recently. Perhaps the rationale is found in the Sharia, supposedly derived from 'principles' - thus subject to even more interpretation.. I pretend no more certainty about 'all the Muslims' than I believe there IS such a thing as, 'The Murican Peepul'. Imagine the actual diversity of individual practitioners (!) I can't.
As to emotion in conversion - even in supposedly intellectual pursuits, isn't the Aha! (when you get lucky) rather compelling evidence that a breakthrough is always accompanied by an emotional (pleasure / satisfaction)? That is: I don't believe it is possible to 'convert' (either way) from what is always a combination of mind/heart - without that which many call, an epiphany. (But of course - no one can ever know what another actually 'felt' except by deeming their report an honest one).
A.
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Post #14,772
10/23/01 10:18:26 AM
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Conversion
If you limit the domain to religion, I would agree that the majority of conversions involve an epiphany. Heck, from what I've read, every conversion to fundamentalist Christian has involved a strongly emotional and relatively fast conversion.
However, this isn't true of conversions to atheism. Some of the experiences of conversion to atheism that I have read have taken a long and meandering path that didn't involve anything that might be called an epiphany.
And when it comes to science, I can personally attest to being forced to accept position I didn't like by weight of evidence. Such situation don't involve the joy of discovery and understanding that comes with most science.
Jay
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Post #14,832
10/23/01 6:27:27 PM
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I think that's an
astute observation. Nor can I pretend to 'understand' the process by which (say) a once "stark, rapid emotional decision" is later undermined? nibbled at by ducks? .. leading to a sort of "Oh Well - it seemed Right at the time" resignation.
Y'know? Maybe another case of, 'all generalizations are false including this one'. I suppose you've just demonstrated that the 'suddenness' may be a most frequent component: but 'mind/heart' may indeed change over time as well, with either more experience or deeper contemplation.
Ashton
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Post #14,661
10/22/01 7:01:29 PM
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I'm not sure what other religions believe.
They surely are not part of Abraham's crowd of nations but I imagine that some of them believe in mono-theism.
And yes, you are right that I was looking for a common thread that the three religions have. To be honest, I am shocked at how many things these religions have in common. These commonalities tend to increase my faith in religion. Is that common?
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Post #14,775
10/23/01 11:01:11 AM
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Re: I'm not sure what other religions believe.
They surely are not part of Abraham's crowd of nations but I imagine that some of them believe in mono-theism.
Monotheism would be the rare exception, but it's not exclusive to religions descended from Judaism. Many forms of paganism have a one god / many names concept that is essentially monotheism.
And yes, you are right that I was looking for a common thread that the three religions have. To be honest, I am shocked at how many things these religions have in common. These commonalities tend to increase my faith in religion. Is that common?
I don't see why you would find it at all shocking. Islam builds on Christianity which builds on Judaism. It's perfectly natural that they share a lot in common.
I suspect you may be over impressed by how much they have in common because you have the common Christian misconception of Christianity as being a uniquely different religion. In fact, when Christianity was first being spread among the Romans one of the commonest complaints was that it plagiarized other older religions.
Jay
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