Post #145,470
3/10/04 7:37:23 PM
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Apparently there are different levels of prostitution
You have to tell the marks what they want to hear.
Telling a liberal arts math major who heads an IT group that you know more about math than s/he does is not going to get you the gig.
You've been around the block enough to know that the right answer is the one that gets the job. So you ask your self, "What do they want to hear". Then you tell them. Curiously, that's also a means of expressing competence, icky as it seems.
If it helps, I may soon be in the same boat. My (very high profile internally, not too noticable outside) project shipped today. There is no discussion of the next phase. Our group is down to 5 from 12 a year ago. The only openings posted on the internal job board in my area, are posted by an asian who has a history of only picking up asians. He's looking for 2. Looks like I'm going to be dropping my drawers on the open market soon.
I'm switching to Bushmills from beer. Don't take anything more from me seriously tonight.
except: entropy does increase, but there is still energy coming into the system. You can still break even.
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Post #145,496
3/10/04 10:49:00 PM
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WTF?
a liberal arts math major
WTFIT??? I've known liberal arts majors and I've known math majors (am one myself, in fact), but I've never known a "liberal arts math major".
bcnu,
Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
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Post #145,535
3/11/04 6:59:52 AM
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B.A. in math
No engineering or science core courses. I have no idea what it's good for.
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Post #145,543
3/11/04 8:46:51 AM
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Ah yes. That's a "teaching" degree.
Any more questions about why our math/science education sucks rocks?
bcnu,
Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
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Post #145,564
3/11/04 11:10:23 AM
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That position seems like uninformed BS to me
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #145,574
3/11/04 11:24:59 AM
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You gotta be so serious all the time?
Actually, a BA in math in the colleges and universities I went to was not an easy program. The difference in most cases between the BS and BA options were that some of the more advanced senior level courses that were a part of the BS programs were replaced with education courses.
In truth, just because it's a Bachelor of Arts does most emphatically not mean that it is a "liberal arts" degree.
The mistake really isn't mine, I was just playing along.
bcnu,
Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
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Post #145,587
3/11/04 11:45:39 AM
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That's the second time that I've been accused of that today
In this case, though, I still think that my reaction was reasonable.
It wasn't at all clear that you were joking, and hnick really strongly appears not to be joking.
As for what a BA vs a BSc in math is, that may vary strongly by school. You may have gone to a school where a BA in math has an education flavour, but I certainly didn't. Get the degree where I went to undergrad and it is a BSc, get it where I went to graduate school and the same thing would be a BA. (Actually the real name would be a Latin variation of the same.)
In that spirit I should note that I have an Artium Magistri degree in math from Dartmouth College. I was told that outside of the College I should refer to it as an MA or MSc (my choice) because nobody knows what an AM degree is, and it is equivalent. If the department is asked whether I have an MSc in Math, they will say, "Yes". But since the actual name is Latin for Master of Arts, it is more accurate for me to claim an MA.
Which is why I was flabbergasted at your claim that a BA in math was an education degree.
Cheers,
BEn
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #145,562
3/11/04 11:09:00 AM
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What is any math degree good for?
It is good for what a regular math degree is good for. Going on in math, getting jobs that require a university degree, and going on to become something like a lawyer.
Understanding fields in which there are historical applications of math is not required to understand math perfectly well. Furthermore (depending on your interests) it is possible to find all sorts of applications of math outside of the sciences. A few non-science areas where a math background would be good include social sciences (particularly if your math had a focus on statistics), law school, and philosophy.
You may have had issues with other things about this person. But the degree described seems quite reasonable to me. At least from my perspective as someone with a graduate-level math education.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #145,579
3/11/04 11:31:43 AM
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As a person with a grad Math degree myself,
I would point out that perhaps the most important thing the study of mathematics provides is not its value as vocational training, but that it teaches you how to think logically. This is especially true (if you don't go the applied route) in graduate school. Most non-mathematics majors I encounter are quite surprised when I tell them that in the last 3 semesters of graduate classes I took none of my textbooks had numbers in them, except to ennumerate problems to be solved, and none of "the answers" involved numbers at all.
I think that's the real tragedy of the general population's understanding of mathematics - they think its all about finding some numerical answer. In short, that all of mathematics is merely arithmetic!
bcnu,
Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
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Post #145,585
3/11/04 11:43:41 AM
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Sure, I suppose that's why they offer it
I'm an engineer, so my default viewpoint tends to value applied math.
I do tend to be suspicious of people with no engineering or scientific background fitting themselves in an engineering envirionment as a peer of engineers. That's just me.
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Post #145,591
3/11/04 11:50:33 AM
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Understandable
I can understand why your default viewpoint values applied math.
But the fact that you know more of the math that you value doesn't mean that you know more math than the other person that you're dealing with. The areas of math that you know is a much smaller part of math than you likely realize.
OTOH I definitely hear your doubt of non-engineers in engineering positions. But Andrew Grygus has some things to say on that topic that I hope you hear some day...
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #145,595
3/11/04 11:55:11 AM
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Re: Sure, I suppose that's why they offer it
Right - it's a mindset more than a skillset. "Let's make this thing." This isn't a knock of math education.
I would say, go back and get the engineering MS, but guess what? You'd join the growing list of unemployed American engineers. Check out the stats for unemployment among EEs, the cream of the crop. EE is as hard as physics as a degree program - maybe harder because of labs.
-drl
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Post #145,556
3/11/04 10:51:21 AM
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Don't you do php?
Send me a resume. drew.kime mtginfo com
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #145,582
3/11/04 11:36:23 AM
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no php so far.
Mostly C/C++, various assemblers, Perl, shell scripting, a little Java, and other stuff that I pick up as I need and forget as soon as convienient.
I suppose I ought to update my resume as it's about 4 years out of date. If you're still interested when I finish, I'll send you a copy.
Thanks,
Hugh
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Post #145,584
3/11/04 11:43:14 AM
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You're doomed
Idiot idioms (like php) are now the demand. Paper hiring is worse than ever. You will not be seen as a person. C is worthless experience. Make up a plausible fictional resume NOW featuring extensive Java (I'll back you up) and learn enough to bullshit your way through an interview. After you get the job it won't matter anyway.
PS: I'm half serious.
-drl
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