I guess that was unfair.

Post #145,392 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 4:57:48 PM Reply	I guess that was unfair. I was specifically thinking about Karsten. A comparison that I was reminded of by your comparing Ross to Karsten while trying to tick Ross off. The impression that I have is that you somehow view your little vendetta with Karsten with some pride. I don't. As for Ross, there are better ways to get him to calm down. You think that your actions caused him to improve. I strongly doubt that. On your list, I have only discussed with a few on that list why they left. Craig and Ric in particular left because they got tired of the squabbling and fighting. Whether or not you in particular are responsible is a different story, but the blowup with Ross is an illustration of why those two chose to leave. Do I have good answers to how to handle the underlying problem? No. But I have to say that I understand why Craig and Ric left, and some days I seriously ask myself why I bother logging in here. And my frustration is far worse when the people flaming are people who in my opinion should know better... Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,472 by folkert 3/10/04 7:53:05 PM Reply	Good Point. <flame>Dammint</flame> (to get the Flame Forum Requirement issue taken care of) Actually, you'd be very surprised. I don't have a vendetta with him. You chat with/mail him recently? Sure, I was pounding my chest, trying to prove who was right. In the end, neither of us was and we all lost (before I chest pounded) a good friend, with some possibly quirky habits, and a whole lot of knowledge and good intent. Most times lately, Z is my last stop for the day at work. Unfortunately, that is probably the worst time I should be looking at it. I am going to make it my mid-morning breaktime thing. Much better frame of mind at that point. If I don't get to it then... NEVER after 12PM Local. Until I get home, then and only then when I am out of the "Just got home" rush, and had a pretty good day. If none that applies... Next Mid-Morning break. And I have spoken/chatted/emailed some on that list as well, it is always the general level of Bickering. And, once they get started a few can't/won't stop until a blowout if the other party responds. So chosing not to participate was the cure for them. And, yes it did help Ross recover for the "positive" negative reaction feedback loop he was in. Overall, I also sincerely doubt it improved him. It just broke the rampant cycle. Not trying to justify what I did, but then Ben, how can you sit there and not be completely over-whelmed by the sheer audacity of some of his recent Postings that were Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, elitism, New-World Order, overall generally unconscionable crap. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,479 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 8:41:03 PM Reply	I'll tell you how I recognized the pattern and skipped most of those posts. I also noted how people did (or did not) respond. I replied occasionally in some of the threads where a point interested me. I understand why Ross is angry, and make mental allowances for that. He lashes out at the world, but he does not try to directly go for people's known sore spots. But when I saw you blow up and aim straight for the fucking (inserted so that this still belongs in flames...) jugular, that was different. Different in the way that watching someone be angry and beating on a tree is different than watching someone stick a knife in someone else. (And bringing up Karsten while doing that was a definite sore point for me.) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,486 by folkert 3/10/04 9:49:41 PM Reply	Understand. Please, also understand, changes/promises I have made in the previous post are for real. I will make sure, I temper my responses. Meanwhile my CSS list has grown by one. And prolly will stay that way for a while. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.

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