One thing you need to understand, hooty one.

Greg's decision to host has NOTHING to do with what goes on on this forum. Please understand that.

It bestows upon him NO special rights and NO special responsibilities in the context of this forum. And you don't need to worry about Scott. He'll let people know when they're crossing the line.

And this incarnation of ZIWT did pretty much *poof* into existence out of thin air. I think it took Scott three weeks to write the initial revision of the code.

I know what you're trying to say, Brenda, but you're not quite understanding the dynamic of this place. It's not USENET, it's not Yahoo! Groups, it's not EzBoard, and yet it has aspects of all of these without being quite like any of them. One thing you probably do need to grasp is that there cannot be any kind of "moderation" here. It won't work; this community has members that have been around since 1996. That's eight years, and a long time to know anyone - in real life or online.

One of the consequences of this is that it's counter-productive to have moderation when the community is self-moderating. Back in the bad old days at EzBoard, I was a board admin (along with others) but I'm struggling to recall whether I ever did anything over and above fix broken HTML (you couldn't edit your own posts like you can here). There was the Bryce/Scott incident, but that was exceptional.

If you don't understand why the phrase "HOWLING WOLVES OF CALUMNIATION!" is funny, then you're not qualified to talk about moderating this community.

Back to your post. I respect people according to what they post. When Ross posts nonsense that I can sensibly identify as nonsense, and I give a shit about the subject matter, I'll say so. When he's talking about something I'm interested in, I'll respond favourably. When Greg (our beloved host and master of the ass-crack spelunker) talks rot, he gets told. Even our resident alpha geek, Scott, is not exempt.

If Greg decided to not host, we'd have another server up and running in probably two or three days - for the simple reason that I'd do it. I've got the connection and the hardware. It wouldn't be as fast, and I'd probably get the odd snottogram from my ISP, but I'd do it.

Go to the twiki and read about our history. Even if you've done it before, read it again to refresh your memory. It's easy to stumble across these forums and think that it's just like another EzBoard or Y! Group without the context of our history. We're not. We're different.

Hoo, boy. We're DIFFERENT.

Scott and Greg are not the only ones allowed to post in the Administrivia forum. It's just that we (I admin the Jabber server, for example) like to keep that one forum clear of non-admin issues for the simple reason if one of the various admins posts there, it's important and it will probably have some effect on some service or other.

You can post there if you like. You'll get either yelled at or mocked, but there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from doing so.

I disagree with your suggestion that we should respect Scott and Greg just for being who they are. I'm grateful to them for what they've done and they know it. When Greg has one of his periodic "being an arse" episodes, then I'm not going to defer to him just because he hosts us; in fact, (as hinted at elsewhere) because he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself AND to know better, he's going to get it in the shorts perhaps more than other people might.

There's nothing anyone can do to keep this place running smoothly over and above thinking about what you're replying to and formulating a reasonable response. When that breaks down, you get little tiffs like the one this thread was originally all about.

Don't think of it as respect for the people who made this - after all, it's just a bunch of software and a pile of hardware - it can be replaced and has been in the past, at least twice. Think of it as respect for people who you've come to regard as friends.

*group hug*

/me goes off to read Iron John

Post #145,349 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:04:08 PM Reply	One thing you need to understand, hooty one. There are no "mods" here. There's Scott, who's admin, and there's us plebs down here. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,350 by Nightowl 3/10/04 3:05:05 PM Reply	Regardless what they are called The people who allow us to use this board should have some measure of control over how things are conducted on it. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,353 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:14:51 PM 3/10/04 3:16:11 PM Reply	You miss my point. There is no "they" here. This is a somewhat unconventional place. There's one admin user - Scott - and he got that way because he wrote the software. Greg provides the hosting, but that doesn't earn him any special rights out here on the forums. He's just one of us chickens. There's basically one admin tool - the ban. We're also madly grateful to the above pair (and others who tend other parts of the ZIWT empire). This does not, however, exclude them from a good IFSing when they deserve it. Edit: "Does not excluding them"? Engrish! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!] Edited by pwhysall March 10, 2004, 03:16:11 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,356 by Arkadiy 3/10/04 3:21:17 PM Reply	The Ban and The Lock -- ...what happened to intelligence of this country? -- Sen. Kerry.
Post #145,358 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:22:13 PM Reply	Ah yes, good catch. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,362 by admin 3/10/04 3:39:03 PM Reply	And the Comfy Chair! Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,363 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:46:38 PM Reply	And the soft cushions! With the stuffing all in one corner! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,380 by Steve Lowe 3/10/04 4:37:31 PM Reply	LRPD: I just KNEW the Good Humor Man was behind this... ----- Steve
Post #145,390 by Nightowl 3/10/04 4:53:56 PM Reply	Maybe so But you miss mine too. THEY, as in Scott and Greg, could also simply decide to NOT admin and NOT Host and then there would be no IWT as we know it, unless someone else took it over. And if it is Scott's software, that might not even be possible. Bottom line, these people make it possible for IWT to exist, it didn't just POOF into existence out of thin air, and we should RESPECT them and do our best to keep the community calm and happy when they request it. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,396 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:07:10 PM Reply	No. No "they". Greg's decision to host has NOTHING to do with what goes on on this forum. Please understand that. It bestows upon him NO special rights and NO special responsibilities in the context of this forum. And you don't need to worry about Scott. He'll let people know when they're crossing the line. And this incarnation of ZIWT did pretty much poof into existence out of thin air. I think it took Scott three weeks to write the initial revision of the code. I know what you're trying to say, Brenda, but you're not quite understanding the dynamic of this place. It's not USENET, it's not Yahoo! Groups, it's not EzBoard, and yet it has aspects of all of these without being quite like any of them. One thing you probably do need to grasp is that there cannot be any kind of "moderation" here. It won't work; this community has members that have been around since 1996. That's eight years, and a long time to know anyone - in real life or online. One of the consequences of this is that it's counter-productive to have moderation when the community is self-moderating. Back in the bad old days at EzBoard, I was a board admin (along with others) but I'm struggling to recall whether I ever did anything over and above fix broken HTML (you couldn't edit your own posts like you can here). There was the Bryce/Scott incident, but that was exceptional. If you don't understand why the phrase "HOWLING WOLVES OF CALUMNIATION!" is funny, then you're not qualified to talk about moderating this community. Back to your post. I respect people according to what they post. When Ross posts nonsense that I can sensibly identify as nonsense, and I give a shit about the subject matter, I'll say so. When he's talking about something I'm interested in, I'll respond favourably. When Greg (our beloved host and master of the ass-crack spelunker) talks rot, he gets told. Even our resident alpha geek, Scott, is not exempt. If Greg decided to not host, we'd have another server up and running in probably two or three days - for the simple reason that I'd do it. I've got the connection and the hardware. It wouldn't be as fast, and I'd probably get the odd snottogram from my ISP, but I'd do it. Go to the twiki and read about our history. Even if you've done it before, read it again to refresh your memory. It's easy to stumble across these forums and think that it's just like another EzBoard or Y! Group without the context of our history. We're not. We're different. Hoo, boy. We're DIFFERENT. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,403 by Nightowl 3/10/04 5:17:11 PM Reply	Re: No. No "they". Well if they have no special rights, how come they are the main ones allowed to post in the special Admin forum? (I forgot the name of it). I know you're different, trust me, but I also believe that everyone here should RESPECT the people that keep us up and running, and appreciate what they do. Sure anyone else may be able to do it, but they are the ones who took on the task, and they does exist, because two people are a they, and I refer to two people. They doesn't stand for anything but two people, Scott and Greg. And there is some control somewhere from someone or the Ban and Lock features would not exist or ever have been used. I know what you are trying to say too, Peter, but it didn't poof into existence on it's own, Scott wrote it. That's what I mean. It wasn't planted in place on the Internet by Divine Intervention, it was put here. Like I said, it would be a courtesy, then, to the people who made, run, maintain this place, if you like that word better, to help keep this community running more smoothly by following the Forum guidelines, and it DOES have those. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,405 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:25:52 PM Reply	Let's look at it another way. Scott and Greg are not the only ones allowed to post in the Administrivia forum. It's just that we (I admin the Jabber server, for example) like to keep that one forum clear of non-admin issues for the simple reason if one of the various admins posts there, it's important and it will probably have some effect on some service or other. You can post there if you like. You'll get either yelled at or mocked, but there's nothing whatsoever stopping you from doing so. I disagree with your suggestion that we should respect Scott and Greg just for being who they are. I'm grateful to them for what they've done and they know it. When Greg has one of his periodic "being an arse" episodes, then I'm not going to defer to him just because he hosts us; in fact, (as hinted at elsewhere) because he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself AND to know better, he's going to get it in the shorts perhaps more than other people might. There's nothing anyone can do to keep this place running smoothly over and above thinking about what you're replying to and formulating a reasonable response. When that breaks down, you get little tiffs like the one this thread was originally all about. Don't think of it as respect for the people who made this - after all, it's just a bunch of software and a pile of hardware - it can be replaced and has been in the past, at least twice. Think of it as respect for people who you've come to regard as friends. group hug /me goes off to read Iron John Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,407 by Nightowl 3/10/04 5:28:42 PM Reply	Okay, I concur But I'd change it to thinking of it as respect for IWT as a whole, as a community, and as friends as well. Nightowl >8# "Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,466 by folkert 3/10/04 7:20:06 PM Reply	Periodic? How's that? When Greg has one of his *periodic* "being an arse" episodes, then I'm not going to defer to him just because he hosts us; in fact, (as hinted at elsewhere) because he's big enough and ugly enough to look after himself AND to know better, he's going to get it in the shorts perhaps more than other people might. Periodic? Guess I am not holding my end of the teeter-totter down enough. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,408 by danreck 3/10/04 5:28:44 PM Reply	You stupid ass clown... We were rabid dogs (most of the time), not wolves, fer chrissakes. ---ooo000ooo--- Please read him in his posts... Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,409 by danreck 3/10/04 5:30:03 PM Reply	Re: You stupid ass clown... I no that this is truth. Deny it if you will... [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145408\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=145408] Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,410 by danreck 3/10/04 5:30:52 PM Reply	Re: You stupid ass clown... Or if you want more proofs [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145409\|http://z.iwethey.org...?contentid=145409] Go ahead and try and deny it. Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,467 by folkert 3/10/04 7:20:45 PM 3/10/04 7:21:11 PM Reply	Only three? [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145467\|Oh come one come all] -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks. Edited by folkert March 10, 2004, 07:21:11 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,411 by CRConrad 3/10/04 5:31:45 PM Reply	No, I think the rabid ones were wolves. The dogs... ...were usually yellow (and not [explicitly, at least] rabid), weren't they? [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link\|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html\|Andrew Wittbrodt]
Post #145,551 by danreck 3/11/04 9:52:26 AM Reply	Re: No, I think the rabid ones were wolves. The dogs... IIRC, CRC, MFAC (TLA - jabber), the persecutors were wolves only a few times. Most of the times the calumnators were rabid dogs... YMMV. CU. Just a few thoughts, Danno
Post #145,583 by bepatient 3/11/04 11:36:39 AM Reply	oo0..Please stop calumniating..0oo If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} It goes in, it must come out._{Teslacle's Deviant to Fudd's Law} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #145,593 by deSitter 3/11/04 11:52:07 AM Reply	ooO Sauvons Michel! Ooo We should all make a petition, hunt him down, and email him. I'll translate to French (or jake would do better). -drl
Post #145,594 by Another Scott 3/11/04 11:52:47 AM Reply	Point of order. Is it stupid-ass clown or stupid ass-clown? Cheers, Scott. (Who likes bucket-headed caluminator better.)
Post #145,597 by admin 3/11/04 11:56:08 AM Reply	Re: Point of order. It's stupid ass-clown, you stupid-ass clown. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,598 by Another Scott 3/11/04 11:57:45 AM Reply	Thanks for clearing that up....
Post #145,600 by admin 3/11/04 12:02:00 PM 3/11/04 12:02:31 PM Reply	np. <mutter>Stupid git.</mutter> ;-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..." Edited by admin March 11, 2004, 12:02:31 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,764 by slugbug 3/11/04 11:17:37 PM Reply	LOL!
Post #145,646 by boxley 3/11/04 1:44:42 PM Reply	one are adjectives describing a noun the second is an adjective describing a noun thanx, bill when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #145,414 by admin 3/10/04 5:45:30 PM Reply	20 hours, not 3 weeks Duration, not calendar, obviously. There has been considerable work put in since then, to be sure. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,420 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:51:09 PM Reply	I meant calendar I didn't really think that it took 21 days of developer effort to get us going :) Thanks for the clarification. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,428 by jb4 3/10/04 6:00:23 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #145427 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=145427\|ICLRPD] jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,475 by folkert 3/10/04 8:15:32 PM Reply	Confirming your statement(s) Greg's decision to host has NOTHING to do with what goes on on this forum. Please understand that. Exact-a-mundo. If I didna wanna host... I wouldn't. What goes on here, bears NO amount on changing that. It bestows upon him NO special rights and NO special responsibilities in the context of this forum. Maybe a bit of respect or thanks would be nice once in a while, but once again bears NO amount on changing that. But then again, can't expect respect or thanks from Peter. (a wanker of a different sort) Hoo, boy. We're DIFFERENT. That ain't the HALF of it. -- [link\|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net\|greg], [link\|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry\|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ *i_wethey* I did a 10K wheelchair race once. The guy who pushed me still has the whip-marks.
Post #145,423 by jb4 3/10/04 5:56:35 PM Reply	TLA translation, please: IFS?!? jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,424 by pwhysall 3/10/04 5:58:27 PM Reply	Internet Face Stab A truly revolutionary and innovative method of hurting people. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,426 by Another Scott 3/10/04 5:59:34 PM Reply	Grr. You're too quick! Ruined me joke! ;-)
Post #145,429 by pwhysall 3/10/04 6:00:37 PM Reply	I know :\\ You hadn't posted yours when I hit "save"... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,431 by jb4 3/10/04 6:06:03 PM Reply	Re: Internet Face Stab Thank you...I think. (and I'd like to hear Scott's joke, while we're at it!) jb4 shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub* + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf.* BULLSHIT
Post #145,439 by Another Scott 3/10/04 6:16:23 PM Reply	Not much of a joke, really... Just hit the link and scroll.
Post #154,267 by inthane-chan 5/7/04 7:32:18 PM Reply	Wow. This is ranked #1 search result for "internet face stab". Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #154,273 by Another Scott 5/7/04 8:48:26 PM Reply	Not on MSN. [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=108144\|It's] #5 there. It's not even in the top 20 according to [link\|http://www.ask.com\|Ask Jeeves]. It's #10 on [link\|http://www.dogpile.com\|Dogpile]. It is #1 at [link\|http://www.altavista.com\|Altavista] too. Cheers, Scott. (Who decided to waste 3 minutes and wishes he hadn't...)
Post #145,425 by Another Scott 3/10/04 5:58:31 PM Reply	Installable File System. Or Internet Face Stab. Your choice. ;-) HTH. Cheers, Scott.

Welcome to IWETHEY!