True, but what I really meant

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Post #145,345

by Nightowl

3/10/04 2:53:01 PM

True, but what I really meant

was that if there is this big deal about separation of Church and State, why use a Bible at all? Why not a Lie Detector, or some other concept.

It seems that the "separation" is only when it suits their purpose, I guess.

Sorry I wasn't more clear before.

Nightowl >8#

"Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson

Post #145,354

by ben_tilly

3/10/04 3:16:31 PM

Well, apply the Lemon test

The Lemon test (so-named after [link|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=403&invol=602|Lemon v. Kurtzman]) says that the standard for evaluation is this:

Does it serve a secular purpose? Yes. Many religious people are more likely to tell the truth after swearing on the Bible.
Does it have a primary effect of advancing a particular religious belief? No. Requiring it, or treating different religious oaths differently would. But as long as you are neutral, it doesn't.
Does it involve "excessive entanglement" of government and religion? No.

Furthermore tradition has a strong influence. Given that it has been accepted for centuries as part of our legal system, without very specific good cause, it won't change any time soon.

Cheers,
Ben

"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]

I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (orion) - (106) - March 9, 2004, 02:40:33 AM EST

Your religion must be dead for 1000 years - (altmann) - March 9, 2004, 03:22:47 AM EST

You found it. - (inthane-chan) - (67) - March 9, 2004, 09:28:29 AM EST

a few nits - (danreck) - March 9, 2004, 10:46:04 PM EST

Aw, what the hell... - (danreck) - (65) - March 9, 2004, 10:51:26 PM EST

How I read it - (orion) - (64) - March 10, 2004, 12:07:49 AM EST

You also have to look up the 14th amendment - (ChrisR) - (9) - March 10, 2004, 12:59:52 AM EST

Thanks for that - (orion) - (8) - March 10, 2004, 11:43:10 AM EST

Religious freedom is an individual's right... - (ChrisR) - (7) - March 10, 2004, 12:27:22 PM EST

The way I see it - (orion) - (6) - March 10, 2004, 01:11:26 PM EST

Getting off into gay marriages? - (ChrisR) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 01:24:02 PM EST

Sorry I brought it up - (orion) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 07:07:34 PM EST

Why did the blood tests go away? - (ben_tilly) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 07:26:28 PM EST

Test have not gone away everywhere and it is not because of - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 08:06:35 PM EST

That link didn't work in mozilla :-( - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 08:34:15 PM EST

I had the same problem w/Moz. - (a6l6e6x) - March 10, 2004, 08:41:47 PM EST

This is why the law applies - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 01:40:02 AM EST

Court rooms - (orion) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 11:45:27 AM EST

The legislature enacts the laws, - (ChrisR) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:32:41 PM EST

Still more questions - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:17:07 PM EST

Re: Still more questions - (JayMehaffey) - March 10, 2004, 03:09:19 PM EST

The phrase you are looking for verbatim - (Ashton) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 02:33:36 AM EST

Sort of "read between the lines" - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 11:47:14 AM EST

NO.. - (Ashton) - March 10, 2004, 07:30:14 PM EST

I think you are reading it quite accurately... - (danreck) - March 10, 2004, 11:13:49 AM EST

You could speculate or... - (ben_tilly) - (44) - March 10, 2004, 11:19:56 AM EST

Causes even more confusion - (orion) - (43) - March 10, 2004, 12:05:14 PM EST

Secular isn't vague. - (pwhysall) - (33) - March 10, 2004, 12:13:39 PM EST

By that reasoning then... - (ben_tilly) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:30:00 PM EST

I didn't reason at all. - (pwhysall) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:04:57 PM EST

Do try to keep up, willya? - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 02:35:11 PM EST

Not what the dictionary says - (orion) - (29) - March 10, 2004, 12:31:19 PM EST

Oh yes it is. - (pwhysall) - (28) - March 10, 2004, 01:03:02 PM EST

That's not a proper Engrish dictionary - (ChrisR) - (27) - March 10, 2004, 01:04:14 PM EST

Which is in which country (hint hint)? -NT - (pwhysall) - (26) - March 10, 2004, 01:05:13 PM EST

United Kingdom? -NT - (ChrisR) - (24) - March 10, 2004, 01:08:32 PM EST

"United Kingdom of A, B, C and D E" - (pwhysall) - (23) - March 10, 2004, 01:10:53 PM EST

Araq? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 01:35:08 PM EST

/me pulls the IFS lever. -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:39:03 PM EST

Beeria, Crikey, Disrael, and Effinghanistan -NT - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:42:27 PM EST

You've won a free IFS! -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:42:53 PM EST

Anglos, Berbers, Chinese and Damned Europeans? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:43:22 PM EST

My IFS machine is busy tonight... -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:44:41 PM EST

Arrogant Bastards with Crappy Dictionary Examples? -NT - (admin) - (14) - March 10, 2004, 01:52:36 PM EST

STAB! -NT - (pwhysall) - (13) - March 10, 2004, 02:03:58 PM EST

Ah... - (admin) - (12) - March 10, 2004, 02:09:36 PM EST

Administrative Boofheads Continually Defy Elegance -NT - (pwhysall) - (11) - March 10, 2004, 02:29:15 PM EST

WOBAFGKMRNS - (deSitter) - (10) - March 10, 2004, 04:16:37 PM EST

Re: WOBAFGKMNRS - (admin) - (9) - March 10, 2004, 03:01:32 PM EST

you get a gold star -NT - (deSitter) - (8) - March 10, 2004, 03:53:46 PM EST

Not much of a stretch. - (admin) - (7) - March 10, 2004, 03:56:42 PM EST

hmm go back? exciting times for astronomy -NT - (deSitter) - (6) - March 10, 2004, 04:15:58 PM EST

Two reasons: - (admin) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 04:24:46 PM EST

Sheeat - (deSitter) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 04:30:30 PM EST

Or Scott could just get his son to teach him... -NT - (inthane-chan) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 04:34:38 PM EST

I'm sure Scott can handle it - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 04:38:00 PM EST

joke == missed. :D -NT - (inthane-chan) - March 10, 2004, 04:38:53 PM EST

You make an assumption... - (admin) - March 10, 2004, 05:05:30 PM EST

Without googling - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 03:02:51 PM EST

You are correct! - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 03:05:26 PM EST

In which country is the law in question being examined? - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 01:20:47 PM EST

The Bottom line.. - (deSitter) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 12:20:45 PM EST

The footnotes to the bottom line... - (danreck) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 01:48:16 PM EST

Re: The footnotes to the bottom line... - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:05:39 PM EST

Jefferson is spinning like a rotisserie chicken in his grave - (danreck) - March 10, 2004, 02:43:25 PM EST

I didn't say that it was simple - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 12:27:31 PM EST

Makes me wonder... - (Nightowl) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 02:08:37 PM EST

They don't make you - (ben_tilly) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 02:49:19 PM EST

True, but what I really meant - (Nightowl) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:53:01 PM EST

Well, apply the Lemon test - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 03:16:31 PM EST

It started with the Roman Empire. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 09:48:21 AM EST

A fallacy in your argument - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 12:16:53 AM EST

funny you should ask - (rcareaga) - (12) - March 9, 2004, 10:16:06 AM EST

in one area of the article, only half is revealed - (boxley) - (7) - March 9, 2004, 10:21:08 AM EST

and this "agriculture" stuff - (rcareaga) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 10:31:35 AM EST

You know, if you have to choose... - (ben_tilly) - March 9, 2004, 02:02:20 PM EST

Actually, less than half is revealed - (jb4) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 01:49:14 PM EST

China is far more advanced in this area. - (a6l6e6x) - March 9, 2004, 07:40:36 PM EST

When I was there - (lincoln) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 11:43:40 PM EST

The problem is an expired contract... - (jb4) - March 10, 2004, 12:31:24 PM EST

Bought/sold :-0___ you mean like IT workers? -NT - (Ashton) - March 9, 2004, 07:25:35 PM EST

bRandishment - (Ashton) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 08:02:37 PM EST

for every blowdried3piecesuitlimoowning preacher - (boxley) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 09:39:41 PM EST

And those sammich-handing-out ones remain silent as - (Ashton) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:51:19 AM EST

nope, in their view meek get sh*t -NT - (boxley) - March 10, 2004, 08:24:51 AM EST

Look no further than the first phrase of the first amendment - (ChrisR) - March 9, 2004, 10:29:10 AM EST

Re: I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (JayMehaffey) - March 9, 2004, 03:08:14 PM EST

Also a key point that nobody else is pointing out... - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 07:56:37 PM EST

The effect is nonlinear - - (Ashton) - March 9, 2004, 08:31:18 PM EST

It goes back to Jefferson. - (Another Scott) - (9) - March 9, 2004, 03:26:24 PM EST

Which goes back to the pilgrims, IIRC - (Steve Lowe) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 05:49:50 PM EST

Right - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:01:11 AM EST

Interesting sidenote - (deSitter) - March 10, 2004, 01:22:01 AM EST

Vauge language - (orion) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 12:21:37 AM EST

Um, all speech and writing is subject to interpretation. - (Another Scott) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:28:19 AM EST

You b*3tard... - (danreck) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:59:04 PM EST

Not meant to cause offense. - (Another Scott) - March 10, 2004, 10:41:59 PM EST

Not in the current context - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 12:42:13 AM EST

Your interpritation - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 11:39:23 AM EST

Can't take the time for an appropriate clue bashfest - (Silverlock) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 05:21:14 PM EST

If you cannot answer the question - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 12:36:42 AM EST

I'm not sure what your question actually is. - (Silverlock) - March 14, 2004, 08:14:34 AM EST

sepArate <<<_______grating, that___over and over and___ -NT - (Ashton) - (4) - March 9, 2004, 07:18:14 PM EST

Perhaps that explains why the search came up empty? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 09:12:49 PM EST

16,300 hits in Google. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 10:47:28 PM EST

Did you mean: separation of church and state? - (ChrisR) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 10:53:23 PM EST

Yup. ;-) - (Another Scott) - March 9, 2004, 11:01:04 PM EST

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