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IWETHEY Home / IWETHEY Board / Politics Forum / They don't make you
Post #145,344
by ben_tilly
3/10/04 2:49:19 PM
Reply
New They don't make you
At least not in theory. While it is customary to swear on a Bible and say, "So Help Me God", it is not required, and you will not be forced to do it if you object. If you wish to swear on a different religious object, or if you wish to make it an affirmation, you can.

However the tradition which has been brought down from English Common law is quite strong. As late as 1939, no less than 5 states and The District of Columbia would not excluded testimony from atheists, and in a dozen more any such testimony was routinely attacked on grounds that without belief in God to keep you to the truth, you lacked credibility. I strongly suspect that there are courtrooms today (particularly in the Bible Belt) meeting the latter description. Certainly there are potential jurors who would be swayed by that argument.

Something to think about when you see atheists like me rooting for maintaining the separation of Church and State.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,345
by Nightowl
3/10/04 2:53:01 PM
Reply
New True, but what I really meant
was that if there is this big deal about separation of Church and State, why use a Bible at all? Why not a Lie Detector, or some other concept.

It seems that the "separation" is only when it suits their purpose, I guess.

Sorry I wasn't more clear before.

Nightowl >8#

"Don't be a cynic and disconsolate preacher. Don't bewail and moan. Omit the negative propositions. Challenge us with incessant affirmatives. Don't waste yourself in rejection, or bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Post #145,354
by ben_tilly
3/10/04 3:16:31 PM
Reply
New Well, apply the Lemon test
The Lemon test (so-named after [link|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=403&invol=602|Lemon v. Kurtzman]) says that the standard for evaluation is this:

  1. Does it serve a secular purpose? Yes. Many religious people are more likely to tell the truth after swearing on the Bible.
  2. Does it have a primary effect of advancing a particular religious belief? No. Requiring it, or treating different religious oaths differently would. But as long as you are neutral, it doesn't.
  3. Does it involve "excessive entanglement" of government and religion? No.


Furthermore tradition has a strong influence. Given that it has been accepted for centuries as part of our legal system, without very specific good cause, it won't change any time soon.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (orion) - (106) - March 9, 2004, 02:40:33 AM EST
         Your religion must be dead for 1000 years - (altmann) - March 9, 2004, 03:22:47 AM EST
         You found it. - (inthane-chan) - (67) - March 9, 2004, 09:28:29 AM EST
             a few nits - (danreck) - March 9, 2004, 10:46:04 PM EST
             Aw, what the hell... - (danreck) - (65) - March 9, 2004, 10:51:26 PM EST
                 How I read it - (orion) - (64) - March 10, 2004, 12:07:49 AM EST
                     You also have to look up the 14th amendment - (ChrisR) - (9) - March 10, 2004, 12:59:52 AM EST
                         Thanks for that - (orion) - (8) - March 10, 2004, 11:43:10 AM EST
                             Religious freedom is an individual's right... - (ChrisR) - (7) - March 10, 2004, 12:27:22 PM EST
                                 The way I see it - (orion) - (6) - March 10, 2004, 01:11:26 PM EST
                                     Getting off into gay marriages? - (ChrisR) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 01:24:02 PM EST
                                         Sorry I brought it up - (orion) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 07:07:34 PM EST
                                             Why did the blood tests go away? - (ben_tilly) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 07:26:28 PM EST
                                                 Test have not gone away everywhere and it is not because of - (a6l6e6x) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 08:06:35 PM EST
                                                     That link didn't work in mozilla :-( - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 08:34:15 PM EST
                                                         I had the same problem w/Moz. - (a6l6e6x) - March 10, 2004, 08:41:47 PM EST
                     This is why the law applies - (JayMehaffey) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 01:40:02 AM EST
                         Court rooms - (orion) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 11:45:27 AM EST
                             The legislature enacts the laws, - (ChrisR) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:32:41 PM EST
                                 Still more questions - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:17:07 PM EST
                                     Re: Still more questions - (JayMehaffey) - March 10, 2004, 03:09:19 PM EST
                     The phrase you are looking for verbatim - (Ashton) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 02:33:36 AM EST
                         Sort of "read between the lines" - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 11:47:14 AM EST
                             NO.. - (Ashton) - March 10, 2004, 07:30:14 PM EST
                     I think you are reading it quite accurately... - (danreck) - March 10, 2004, 11:13:49 AM EST
                     You could speculate or... - (ben_tilly) - (44) - March 10, 2004, 11:19:56 AM EST
                         Causes even more confusion - (orion) - (43) - March 10, 2004, 12:05:14 PM EST
                             Secular isn't vague. - (pwhysall) - (33) - March 10, 2004, 12:13:39 PM EST
                                 By that reasoning then... - (ben_tilly) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:30:00 PM EST
                                     I didn't reason at all. - (pwhysall) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:04:57 PM EST
                                         Do try to keep up, willya? - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 02:35:11 PM EST
                                 Not what the dictionary says - (orion) - (29) - March 10, 2004, 12:31:19 PM EST
                                     Oh yes it is. - (pwhysall) - (28) - March 10, 2004, 01:03:02 PM EST
                                         That's not a proper Engrish dictionary - (ChrisR) - (27) - March 10, 2004, 01:04:14 PM EST
                                             Which is in which country (hint hint)? -NT - (pwhysall) - (26) - March 10, 2004, 01:05:13 PM EST
                                                 United Kingdom? -NT - (ChrisR) - (24) - March 10, 2004, 01:08:32 PM EST
                                                     "United Kingdom of A, B, C and D E" - (pwhysall) - (23) - March 10, 2004, 01:10:53 PM EST
                                                         Araq? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 01:35:08 PM EST
                                                             /me pulls the IFS lever. -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:39:03 PM EST
                                                             Beeria, Crikey, Disrael, and Effinghanistan -NT - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:42:27 PM EST
                                                                 You've won a free IFS! -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:42:53 PM EST
                                                         Anglos, Berbers, Chinese and Damned Europeans? -NT - (Silverlock) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:43:22 PM EST
                                                             My IFS machine is busy tonight... -NT - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 01:44:41 PM EST
                                                         Arrogant Bastards with Crappy Dictionary Examples? -NT - (admin) - (14) - March 10, 2004, 01:52:36 PM EST
                                                             STAB! -NT - (pwhysall) - (13) - March 10, 2004, 02:03:58 PM EST
                                                                 Ah... - (admin) - (12) - March 10, 2004, 02:09:36 PM EST
                                                                     Administrative Boofheads Continually Defy Elegance -NT - (pwhysall) - (11) - March 10, 2004, 02:29:15 PM EST
                                                                         WOBAFGKMRNS - (deSitter) - (10) - March 10, 2004, 04:16:37 PM EST
                                                                             Re: WOBAFGKMNRS - (admin) - (9) - March 10, 2004, 03:01:32 PM EST
                                                                                 you get a gold star -NT - (deSitter) - (8) - March 10, 2004, 03:53:46 PM EST
                                                                                     Not much of a stretch. - (admin) - (7) - March 10, 2004, 03:56:42 PM EST
                                                                                         hmm go back? exciting times for astronomy -NT - (deSitter) - (6) - March 10, 2004, 04:15:58 PM EST
                                                                                             Two reasons: - (admin) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 04:24:46 PM EST
                                                                                                 Sheeat - (deSitter) - (4) - March 10, 2004, 04:30:30 PM EST
                                                                                                     Or Scott could just get his son to teach him... -NT - (inthane-chan) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 04:34:38 PM EST
                                                                                                         I'm sure Scott can handle it - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 04:38:00 PM EST
                                                                                                             joke == missed. :D -NT - (inthane-chan) - March 10, 2004, 04:38:53 PM EST
                                                                                                     You make an assumption... - (admin) - March 10, 2004, 05:05:30 PM EST
                                                         Without googling - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 03:02:51 PM EST
                                                             You are correct! - (pwhysall) - March 10, 2004, 03:05:26 PM EST
                                                 In which country is the law in question being examined? - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 01:20:47 PM EST
                             The Bottom line.. - (deSitter) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 12:20:45 PM EST
                                 The footnotes to the bottom line... - (danreck) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 01:48:16 PM EST
                                     Re: The footnotes to the bottom line... - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:05:39 PM EST
                                         Jefferson is spinning like a rotisserie chicken in his grave - (danreck) - March 10, 2004, 02:43:25 PM EST
                             I didn't say that it was simple - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 12:27:31 PM EST
                             Makes me wonder... - (Nightowl) - (3) - March 10, 2004, 02:08:37 PM EST
                                 They don't make you - (ben_tilly) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 02:49:19 PM EST
                                     True, but what I really meant - (Nightowl) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:53:01 PM EST
                                         Well, apply the Lemon test - (ben_tilly) - March 10, 2004, 03:16:31 PM EST
         It started with the Roman Empire. - (Andrew Grygus) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 09:48:21 AM EST
             A fallacy in your argument - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 12:16:53 AM EST
         funny you should ask - (rcareaga) - (12) - March 9, 2004, 10:16:06 AM EST
             in one area of the article, only half is revealed - (boxley) - (7) - March 9, 2004, 10:21:08 AM EST
                 and this "agriculture" stuff - (rcareaga) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 10:31:35 AM EST
                     You know, if you have to choose... - (ben_tilly) - March 9, 2004, 02:02:20 PM EST
                 Actually, less than half is revealed - (jb4) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 01:49:14 PM EST
                     China is far more advanced in this area. - (a6l6e6x) - March 9, 2004, 07:40:36 PM EST
                     When I was there - (lincoln) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 11:43:40 PM EST
                         The problem is an expired contract... - (jb4) - March 10, 2004, 12:31:24 PM EST
                 Bought/sold :-0___ you mean like IT workers? -NT - (Ashton) - March 9, 2004, 07:25:35 PM EST
             bRandishment - (Ashton) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 08:02:37 PM EST
                 for every blowdried3piecesuitlimoowning preacher - (boxley) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 09:39:41 PM EST
                     And those sammich-handing-out ones remain silent as - (Ashton) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 02:51:19 AM EST
                         nope, in their view meek get sh*t -NT - (boxley) - March 10, 2004, 08:24:51 AM EST
         Look no further than the first phrase of the first amendment - (ChrisR) - March 9, 2004, 10:29:10 AM EST
         Re: I am trying to understand seperation of church and state - (JayMehaffey) - March 9, 2004, 03:08:14 PM EST
         Also a key point that nobody else is pointing out... - (ben_tilly) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 07:56:37 PM EST
             The effect is nonlinear - - (Ashton) - March 9, 2004, 08:31:18 PM EST
         It goes back to Jefferson. - (Another Scott) - (9) - March 9, 2004, 03:26:24 PM EST
             Which goes back to the pilgrims, IIRC - (Steve Lowe) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 05:49:50 PM EST
                 Right - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:01:11 AM EST
                     Interesting sidenote - (deSitter) - March 10, 2004, 01:22:01 AM EST
             Vauge language - (orion) - (5) - March 10, 2004, 12:21:37 AM EST
                 Um, all speech and writing is subject to interpretation. - (Another Scott) - (2) - March 10, 2004, 12:28:19 AM EST
                     You b*3tard... - (danreck) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 01:59:04 PM EST
                         Not meant to cause offense. - (Another Scott) - March 10, 2004, 10:41:59 PM EST
                 Not in the current context - (deSitter) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 12:42:13 AM EST
                     Your interpritation - (orion) - March 10, 2004, 11:39:23 AM EST
         Can't take the time for an appropriate clue bashfest - (Silverlock) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 05:21:14 PM EST
             If you cannot answer the question - (orion) - (1) - March 10, 2004, 12:36:42 AM EST
                 I'm not sure what your question actually is. - (Silverlock) - March 14, 2004, 08:14:34 AM EST
         sepArate <<<_______grating, that___over and over and___ -NT - (Ashton) - (4) - March 9, 2004, 07:18:14 PM EST
             Perhaps that explains why the search came up empty? -NT - (ChrisR) - (3) - March 9, 2004, 09:12:49 PM EST
                 16,300 hits in Google. :-/ -NT - (Another Scott) - (2) - March 9, 2004, 10:47:28 PM EST
                     Did you mean: separation of church and state? - (ChrisR) - (1) - March 9, 2004, 10:53:23 PM EST
                         Yup. ;-) - (Another Scott) - March 9, 2004, 11:01:04 PM EST

Build a 10-mile high titanium wall around the whole shebang.
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