Secular isn't vague.

Post #145,269 by pwhysall 3/10/04 12:13:39 PM Reply	Secular isn't vague. It has a precise meaning - it simply means "not having any connection with religion". Santa Claus is clearly a religious symbol, because he's quite exactly connected to the Christian festival of Christmas. The figure of "Santa Claus" is actually derived from the European Saint Nicholas. No Xmas = No Santa. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,274 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 12:30:00 PM Reply	By that reasoning then... A Christmas tree is a clearly religious symbol (this time pagan) and so should not be displayed either. Yet in the USA the presence of Christmas trees in various public spaces (including government offices) is readily accepted. Illogical as it may strike you, that isn't how the US court system actually draws the line when they say "secular". Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,294 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:04:57 PM Reply	I didn't reason at all. I just disagreed with Norman when he said that "secular" is a vague word. It isn't. That's all. Putting up an xmas tree in a government building is one thing. That's fine. Legislating that I must do so is completely different, I think you'll agree. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,338 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 2:35:11 PM Reply	Do try to keep up, willya? Words have multiple definitions. By the definition and reasoning which lead you to classify Santa Claus as a religious symbol, you would also have to classify Christmas trees as a religious symbol. Which, in popular usage, it certainly isn't. Furthermore if it came to a court of law, it wouldn't be as well. Splitting linguistic hairs to come to a wrong conclusion about how courts will decide something is pointless. The courts will decide as they decide. Ours is not to tell them how they should intend their language. It is to understand what they did intend, regardless of how much we argue with how it was put. Furthermore you can drop the non-sequitor. Yes, I'm talking about: Putting up an xmas tree in a government building is one thing. That's fine. Legislating that I must do so is completely different, I think you'll agree. Since you seem to be missing the boat, Norm asked about what was discussed at [link\|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment01/04.html#7\|http://caselaw.lp.fi...dment01/04.html#7]. That turns out to be the legality of the placement of symbols with possible religious significance in courthouses. We are not comparing and contrasting between their right to put up such a symbol in a court and the right of government to order you to do it. We are contrasting between why a creche was allowed at one courthouse, while at a second courthouse the creche was not allowed but a menorah was. Now questions of what underlies this may seem to be splitting hairs. And it is. Unless it is the legal system that you live under, and you wish to understand it (as inane as it might be). So if you're not interested in the topic, ignore the discussion. You don't live here, after all. But if you do participate, I'd appreciate it if you at least try to figure out what we're discussing. Regards, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,275 by orion 3/10/04 12:31:19 PM Reply	Not what the dictionary says [link\|http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=secular&x=23&y=17\|http://www.m-w.com/c...secular&x=23&y=17] Main Entry: 1sec\ufffdu\ufffdlar Pronunciation: 'se-ky&-l&r Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Old French seculer, from Late Latin saecularis, from saeculum the present world, from Latin, generation, age, century, world; akin to Welsh hoedl lifetime 1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal (secular concerns) b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical (secular courts) (secular landowners) 2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation (a secular priest) 3 a : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration I was using the first defitinition. As you can plainly see there is more than one defintion which makes it vauge and ambiguous. BTW didn't someone once post in here that Coca Cola invented Santa Claus? I searched and found this: [link\|http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp\|http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp] Origins: Santa Claus is perhaps the most remarkable of all the figures associated with Christmas. To us, Santa has always been an essential part of the Christmas celebration, but the modern image of Santa didn't develop until well into the 19th century. Moreover, he didn't spring to life fully-formed as a literary creation or a commercial invention (as did his famous reindeer, Rudolph). Santa Claus was an evolutionary creation, brought about by the fusion of two religious personages (St. Nicholas and Christkindlein, the Christ child) to become a fixed image which is now the paramount symbol of the secular Christmas celebration. It clearly states that Santa Claus has become the paramount symbol of the secular Christmas celebration. As I did state, something being secular is relative to the person doing the judgement. Peter apparently sees Santa as not being secular, but Snopes does see Santa as secular. This just adds to the confusion. *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*
Post #145,292 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:03:02 PM Reply	Oh yes it is. [link\|http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=71094&dict=CALD\|http://dictionary.ca...y=71094&dict=CALD] Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,293 by ChrisR 3/10/04 1:04:14 PM Reply	That's not a proper Engrish dictionary As it's from Cambridge. :-)
Post #145,295 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:05:13 PM Reply	Which is in which country (hint hint)? Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,297 by ChrisR 3/10/04 1:08:32 PM Reply	United Kingdom?
Post #145,298 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:10:53 PM Reply	"United Kingdom of A, B, C and D E" Value of A is? Bonus points for filling in the rest without googling. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,307 by ChrisR 3/10/04 1:35:08 PM Reply	Araq?
Post #145,310 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:39:03 PM Reply	/me pulls the IFS lever. Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,314 by deSitter 3/10/04 1:42:27 PM Reply	Beeria, Crikey, Disrael, and Effinghanistan -drl
Post #145,315 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:42:53 PM Reply	You've won a free IFS! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,316 by Silverlock 3/10/04 1:43:22 PM Reply	Anglos, Berbers, Chinese and Damned Europeans? ----------------------------------------- "If you don't vote, it's your fault!" -jb4 George W. "I cannot tell a lie" George W. B. "I cannot tell a lie from lie related program activities"
Post #145,317 by pwhysall 3/10/04 1:44:41 PM Reply	My IFS machine is busy tonight... Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,319 by admin 3/10/04 1:52:36 PM Reply	Arrogant Bastards with Crappy Dictionary Examples? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,325 by pwhysall 3/10/04 2:03:58 PM Reply	STAB! Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,328 by admin 3/10/04 2:09:36 PM Reply	Ah... Anglic Boffins Can't Describe English, Arguing Balefully, "Colonials Defy Eloquence". Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,334 by pwhysall 3/10/04 2:29:15 PM Reply	Administrative Boofheads Continually Defy Elegance Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,336 by deSitter 3/10/04 2:31:28 PM 3/10/04 4:16:37 PM Reply	WOBAFGKMRNS "Wow! Oh be a fine girl, kiss me right now sweetie!" (who can identify without looking?) -drl Edited by deSitter March 10, 2004, 04:16:37 PM EST Expand All History
Post #145,347 by admin 3/10/04 3:01:32 PM Reply	Re: WOBAFGKMNRS Stellar sequence, innit? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,365 by deSitter 3/10/04 3:53:46 PM Reply	you get a gold star -drl
Post #145,367 by admin 3/10/04 3:56:42 PM Reply	Not much of a stretch. I was only a year away from an Astronomy degree when I quit... :-) Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,369 by deSitter 3/10/04 4:15:58 PM Reply	hmm go back? exciting times for astronomy -drl
Post #145,372 by admin 3/10/04 4:24:46 PM Reply	Two reasons: 1) Tensor calculus 2) Gotta pay the mortgage Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,376 by deSitter 3/10/04 4:30:30 PM Reply	Sheeat I could teach you tensors in a month. If you ever want tutoring just say "go" and you'll have it down, bro. Seriously. -drl
Post #145,379 by inthane-chan 3/10/04 4:34:38 PM Reply	Or Scott could just get his son to teach him...
Post #145,382 by deSitter 3/10/04 4:38:00 PM Reply	I'm sure Scott can handle it Few subjects are taught as poorly as vector and tensor analysis. It's just a matter of presenting it correctly from a non-mathematician's point of view. That doesn't mean less rigorous or correct, just less general. -drl
Post #145,383 by inthane-chan 3/10/04 4:38:53 PM Reply	joke == missed. :D
Post #145,395 by admin 3/10/04 5:05:30 PM Reply	You make an assumption... ... that I want to learn tensors. There's a reason I'm not a physicist or a mathematician or an astronomer... I don't like doing math. This has nothing to do with my ability to do math; it's all motivation. :-P Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #145,348 by ben_tilly 3/10/04 3:02:51 PM Reply	Without googling England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland. That is not exactly in order of aquisition. IIRC, England's claim to Ireland, asserted with varying degrees of success, goes back to the twelfth centry when the Pope gave Ireland to Henry I. And Northern Ireland corresponds closely (and not coincidentally) with the area in which England long had the strongest hold, aka "The Pale". Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #145,351 by pwhysall 3/10/04 3:05:26 PM Reply	You are correct! No, it's not in the order of acquisition, but it is in the order that rolls off the tongue best ;) Peter [link\|http://www.debian.org\|Shill For Hire] [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal] [link\|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org\|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
Post #145,302 by orion 3/10/04 1:20:47 PM Reply	In which country is the law in question being examined? We have different definitions for things over here you know. If it was a UK Law, you could use a UK definiton. When in Rome do as the Romans do and all that. :) *"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"*

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