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New Bush says he wants a Constitutional Amendment to ...
outlaw judges and local officials.

[link|http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a_R4IJuzYugM&refer=top_world_news|Bloomberg]:

Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. President George W. Bush said today he supports a constitutional amendment banning same-sex couples from getting married.

``Some activist judges and local officials have made an aggressive attempt to redefine marriage,'' Bush said at the White House. ``A few judges and local authorities are presuming to change the most fundamental institution of civilization.''

[...]

Bush said that although 38 states have passed similar legislation, the laws may be at risk from ``activist courts'' and local officials. ``Unless action is taken, we can expect more arbitrary court cases, more litigation, more defiance of the law by local officials,'' he said. ``On a matter of such importance, the voice of the people must be heard.''


And we all know that once something is in the Constitution, judges never have a say about it again.

[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]


I think Bush figures that this proposed amendment is just like 1999's [link|http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/24/flag.burning/|flag burning amendment] - a cudgel to batter the Democrats with, energize the base, and not annoy the vast majority enough to cause a backlash. I think he's miscalculating this time.

Cheers,
Scott.
New A good letter to the editor.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56303-2004Feb19.html|Susan Lehman] in the Washington Post:

Friday, February 20, 2004; Page A24

The Constitution is not a road map for personal behavior. It is a document establishing regulations and procedures for the U.S. government, most often limiting government intrusion in the lives of citizens. One reads again and again variations on the phrase "the right of the people . . . shall not be infringed."
\t
To insert a stance defining marriage into the Constitution is to alter the purpose of the Constitution ["Bush Plans to Back Marriage Amendment; Constitution Would Specify Man, Woman," front page, Feb. 11].

This approach has been tried once, and it doesn't work. The one amendment adopted for the purpose of regulating personal behavior -- the 18th Amendment prohibiting the sale and transport of alcohol -- was a miserable failure.

This is neither to support nor challenge gay marriage. It is simply to say that the Constitution is the wrong vehicle for opposition or support.

SUSAN LEHMAN

Rockville


Well said.

Cheers,
Scott.
New I think Rove has it measured out
I think Rove has Bush's posistion carefully measured out here. It's carefully calculated so that Bush can play the conservative moderate role, arguing against Gay Marriage while being able to say he has nothing against gay people.

Rather like the people who, until recently, said they had nothing against black people, but that black/white marriage was racially unsound and against God's will.

But I suspect it will play well in the press, because the posistion Bush has staked out is designed to blend with the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans support legal rights for gay couples, but get uncertain when the marriage word is used.

Jay
New The latest poll numbers.
[link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data022404.html|WashPost-ABC]:

3. (Would you support amending the U.S. Constitution to make it\nillegal for homosexual couples to get married anywhere in the U.S.), or\n(should each state make its own laws on homosexual marriage)? Do you feel\nthat way strongly or somewhat?\n\n \tSupport amend (net)\n                    Strongly Somewhat\n                                  Each state own (net)\n                                            Strongly Somewhat No opinion\n2/22/04 \t46 \t38 \t8 \t45 \t31 \t15 \t9\n1/18/04 \t38 \tna \tna \t58 \tna \tna \t3


(Sorry about the formatting)

That's a pretty big swing in a month. I think that indicates that, on the amendment question, that people are still deciding what they think.

My hope is that the longer this is debated, the more people will realize that the Consitution isn't the place for this issue to be decided. But it only takes one advocate to swing the debate (look at what the press did with Dean's yell...)

Most still do oppose gay marriage according to the poll.

Cheers,
Scott.
New yeah put it in the constitution
and spend the next one hundred years argueing that only well regulated militias can get married.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New "Gay married illegal aliens in the Army - you decide!"
-drl
New Oh c'mon..
Bush said he supports a new amendment to the constitution.


A constitutional amendement.


So, .... just how many states voting 'yes' does it take to pass an amendment?

This is nothing more then a cheap, inconsequential, media grab, lightning rod topic. An election year "issue" that Bush will only give lip service to. Anyone remember the ERA amendment?
-----------------------------------------
"If you don't vote, it's your fault!"
-jb4

George W. "I cannot tell a lie"
George W. B. "I cannot tell a lie from lie related program activities"
New 38
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New Sure.
It takes 2/3 of the House and Senate and 3/4 of the states. It's very difficult.

There's also the [link|http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html|Constitutional Convention] route which also requires 2/3 of the states. (That way has never been used.) Since 38 states have already passed "marriage=man+woman" laws, that might be an easier route for proponents. Thankfully, an amendment approved by the Convention would still require ratification by 3/4 of the states.

A discussion of these issues took place at the WP today. [link|http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2176-2004Feb24.html|Transcript].

It's the idea of it that bothers me. Yes, it's politics. But it's hard to imagine any good coming from the arguments about it.

:-(

Re the ERA - I know someone who still has a pro-ERA vanity license plate....

[edit - typo]

Cheers,
Scott.
Expand Edited by Another Scott Feb. 24, 2004, 11:25:41 PM EST
New ERA got me in trouble in college.
I was taking a freshman "Critical Thinking" class. The topic of the ERA came up. After several impassioned arguments for and against were made by several students, I was asked my opinion. I said, "The thing that amazes me most about all the comments I've heard today and before is that I know almost no one who can recite the amendment." I then asked several of the anti-ERA males in the room, "Can you tell me what it says exactly? How about you? What about you?" No one could answer my question.

The prof, an "empowered" woman very much pro-ERA came to the defense, "Well, you can't expect people to have the whole thing memorized." I replied, "Well, you can if they've ever read it!" She said, "Well, I've read it and I don't remember all of it." I replied, "That's preposterous! Section 1 is one sentence, Section 2 is one sentence and Section 3 is one sentence that says the amendment takes effect in two years. If you've ever read it, you couldn't forget what it says. And if you've never read it, how can you have an informed opinion on it? I find it ironic that I'm sitting in a Critical Thinking classroom where no one is thinking critically about this issue."

That didn't go over very well. She said, "Well then, why don't you tell us what it says?" So, I did. That went over even worse ;-)


bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New Dude, you're my f**king hero!
Of course the argument against that "abortion" ha ha is the same one to use against the Gaystead Act. The Constitution is not an empowerment arena, rather, a prescription for limiting the pernicious influence of government.
-drl
New ah, the ERA...
As the deadline for ratification drew near, with the magic 38 just out of reach (and with a couple of states thinking aloud about rescinding previous endorsements) sundry women of my acquaintance joined the call for extending the deadline, and a couple of them became rather peckish when I suggested to them that should they prevail they might someday come to rue the precedent.

Since we should not tinker with the Constitution any more than absolutely necessary, I think Bush is missing a bet by not including in the proposed amendment language that would prevent married sodomites from burning the flag, thereby efficiently addressing two red-meat issues dear to his constituency with one amendment rather than a pair.

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New What about poo-munching and golden showers?
-drl
New ..he says as half of IWETHEY sits down to lunch...
-----
Steve
New Re: What about poo-munching and golden showers?
Presumably employing Old Glory as a tablecloth in the first instance and a shower curtain in the latter? Hanging's too good for 'em, I say. In fact, a constitution's too good for 'em. Let's just reconcile ourselves to hereditary rule by the Bush dynasty, and government by executive fiat (informed, to be sure, by the Good Book—"only God, no other kings," as our Attorney General has so memorably warbled—lyrics at [link|http://www.toadalamode.com/ashcroft.html|http://www.toadalamode.com/ashcroft.html]).

cordially,
Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
New ? the Earned Run Average got to do with the constitution?
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New What DeSitter said!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New I don't get the objections to the whole concept
This talk of people suing to prevent gay marriages. Who's doing that? What is their motivation? What possible impact does the union of a couple of people they don't even know have on their day to day lives?

Tolerance people. Just because its not your thing doesn't mean you have to spoil everybody's fun.



The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New Agree, but there are "public" implications.
Easy one: Suppose we have Jack and Steve married. Steve works full-time, Jack never works a day in his life (he's the stay-at-home type). Steve, tragically, is killed. As the legally married spouse of Steve, Jack gets to collect Social Security benefits. Even if Steve lives to 62, Jack still gets a Social Security check when he reaches the elligible age because he is Steve's spouse.

Without the "legal" marriage, Jack gets bumpkis.

Mind you, I'm on the same page you are and I don't know of a single challenge so far based upon this reasoning, but there you are: a public liability that results from "legal" gay marriages.


bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New Well, hell, if THAT'S all you're worried about
we can fix that by ammending the SS rules so that no freeloading spouse can suck on the corporatefederal tit by simply outliving his/her/its spouse!

It's all too simple!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New But they don't have to outlive them!
All they have to do is turn 62. They never contribute a dime to the SS [sic] Trust Fund but they get 50% of what their working spouse is entitled to when that spouse reaches age 65.

I'm not worried about it at all. Something I don't understand is why the federal government would be interested in this at all. I mean, hell, the states issue marriage licenses - it is not a federal issue at all!
bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New making sure I dont have a problem with that
Maybe I misunderstood.

My wife has/is raising 4 children, puts up with my shit and keeps this famdamily running. I have been paying into the fund since the age of 14 and vever expected to live to 48 much less 60 so after all the cash I put in I dam well expect the rest of you folks to pay my share until she croaks which considering her mom is 83 and she has none of my bad habits is fair enough for all the cash ya 'all have soaked out of me over the years. 2 guys living together in late middle age and one croaks, the other being a typical guy will find a bar close to home and stay there till they croak of cirrosis. My wife dies after my kids leave I will prolly do the same thing. I dont see a financial downside here by making this available to gay men. However I think that gay women couples should have their retirement age moved to 75 as statistically women live a lot longer than men and married women live longer than married men so 2 women married to each other are going to live forever out of spite.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Well if *that's* up for discussion ...
However I think that gay women couples should have their retirement age moved to 75 as statistically women live a lot longer than men
Considering the retirement age was set at 62 at a time when the average life expectance was about, oh ... 62 ... it seems the financials would work out better if SS retirement age was indexed to average life expectancy. "Oh, but what about my golden years?" The program was put in place to take care of people who didn't have the decency to die once they were too old to work. It was not intended to supplement the income of fit seniors golfing their way across Florida.</generalization>
===

Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
New Someone here mentioned that life expectancy ...
isn't a terribly meaningful statistic in this discussion. It's true that the life expectancy at birth has risen dramatically in the last 100 years, but that's primarily due to improvements in the number of children living past age 5 (or so).

If you believe [link|http://www.ifs.org.uk/conferences/poterba/sld005.htm|this] slide, the life expectancy for men at age 65 has only increased abut 10 years in the last 1800 years.

SS should be treated as social insurance, not an entitlement. That would go a long way toward solving its financial difficulties.

My $0.02.

Cheers,
Scott.
New now what about equal rights!!!!
If statistically as a smoker I will croak 7 to 10 years earlier than average I should be able to get social security at age 57 everything else is pc elitism at the expense of elitism of equal rights, joining grey panthers tomorrow. Got discounts on c4 ak47's and depends.
thanx,
box
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Quit whining.
You're older than I am so you're going to get a hell of a lot more back of your FICA contributions than I am. My inlaws have already gotten back 200% of the contributions my father-in-law made and both are in excellent health, they will live at least another decade, perhaps two. Bottom line: my father-in-law and his employers contributed $50,000 (less than I have so far) and he and his wife have received over $125,000 from the fund already - and that doesn't count the cost of their Medicare. Before they die, even if there are no increases they'll take home at least $250,000 more! Not a bad return. Excluding Medicare, which ain't free, a return of at least $375,000 for a $50,000 investment (actually, my father-in-law contributed only $25,000 if we're going to be honest).

Anyone born after 1957 is going to be screwed unconscious. Greenspan just yesterday recommended that SS benefits be cut for future generations. What a magnamimous old fart. Don't cut his, just his kids/their kids/their kids/etc. ad infinitum. Typical of his generation.

Born before 1950, the very best investment in your life was the SS Trust Fund.
bcnu,
Mikem

I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
New I believe you are ignoring the time value of money.
A hundred dollars contributed in 1957 is not the same as a hundred dollars contributed now. You at least need to allow for the inflation rate never mind a modest return. That is the cost of FICA to an individual.

You are also ignoring the matching contribution from the employer and the same appreciation rules as above.

Yeah, I know it is actually run like Ponzi scheme.
Alex

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom ... the argument of tyrants ... the creed of slaves. -- William Pitt, addressing the British House of Commons (1783)
New Oh, YES IT DOES!!!
Just ask Ashhole!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
New which one? 457 of em around here
Our community is too small to afford a permanent asshole so we all take turns.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Article that sez the same
[link|http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=16478&area=tucker|http://www.workingfo...16478&area=tucker]

What is the point in objecting again?


The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
     -- Alan Kay
New Re: That was on news here in Oz - says Bush may be on a

winning tactic to divert attention. News here says 66% of US citzens support the Bush move. Claim was made that SFO publicity on gay marriages has turned tide against gay marriage & to some degree gay rights.

Doug M

New Re: That was on news here in Oz - says Bush may be on a
I don't think so really. Believe it or not, Americans are still mostly live and let live personally, even if public figures don't often express this sentiment. I think the majority have no problem with "civil unions" between gays that are effectively marriages in all but name. The offer of this will be enough to placate everyone. Kerry is already saying he's undecided, more or less tabling it as a campaign issue to compare with the disaster in Iraqistan and the job hemorrhage.
-drl
New Voice of the WHAT?!?
Duh blathers:
"On a matter of such importance, the voice of the people must be heard."


Yeah. Right.

From [link|http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/printedition/chi-0402250168feb25,1,5084171.story?coll=chi-printnews-hed|the Chicago Tribune]
The Gallup Organization found in a recent poll that about 60 percent of Americans oppose legalizing same-sex marriage, but less than half of them want to see the Constitution amended to ban such marriages. The poll also showed that while the issue overall is important to Republicans, it is of much less concern to Democrats and independents.


Also, see this [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=143125|poll] that shows statistically as much support for leaving the Constitution alone as it does for fucking with it to make the neocons feel better about their own sexuality.

It seems that the "voice" of the people" is pretty clear, alright...the problem is that the voice just isn't what Duh want's to hear.

(And this differs from this "administration's" SOP how?)

Just fire up that Big Lie machine one more time...

[Edit: cross-referenced Another Scott's post containing the poll results I couldn't find earlier...Thanks, Scott...]
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Expand Edited by jb4 Feb. 25, 2004, 12:27:22 PM EST
New More than that!
The Constitution is not the "voice of the people" - what idiocy! It's the form and boundaries of government. The "voice of the people" is embodied in laws, on whatever level. Does this fucking idiot even have a vague idea about the government he's residing over?
-drl
New thats a major flaw of democracy
my vote is equal to the clyde who heard from his wife's coworker second hand to vote an issue based on a surmise enshrouded in a fallacy.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New The USA isn't a democracy, Bill
Or are you forgetting your Pledge of Allegiance?

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all".

We are a REPUBLIC - we elect people to represent us in our government.

We are democratic when it comes to the economy - everybody votes with their dollars on which products/services to buy. They decide which ones they believe are the better value for their purchasing effort.
lincoln

"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
New I know it is a Republic and the dems
are still gnashing their teeth and crying about losing the last election, the fact we are a republic but many would prefer a democracy to destroy our freedoms.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New That old chestnut?
losing the last election
[link|http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm|transcript] as reported Feb 16, 01, by Greg Palast. The scrubbing of the voter roles of "felons" just happened to remove 22,000 eligible democrats from those able to vote.

Gore won. He got screwed. Bush is President.

Sob. Boohoo.
-----------------------------------------
"If you don't vote, it's your fault!"
-jb4

George W. "I cannot tell a lie"
George W. B. "I cannot tell a lie from lie related program activities"
New horse chestnut backatcha
either way the legislature was set to appoint the electors, bush wins anyway.
thanx,
bill
when I was young I envisioned myself as the embodiment of Trinity, Now I realize I have turned into the Bambino
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New The 2/28 Economist's take.
[link|http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2459758|Here]:

It can only be a matter of time before this issue arrives at the federal Supreme Court. And those \ufffdactivist judges\ufffd, who, by the way, gave Mr Bush his job in 2000, might well take the same view of the federal constitution as their Massachusetts equivalents did of their state code: that the constitution demands equality of treatment. Last June, in Lawrence v Texas, they ruled that state anti-sodomy laws violated the constitutional right of adults to choose how to conduct their private lives with regard to sex, saying further that \ufffdthe Court's obligation is to define the liberty of all, not to mandate its own moral code\ufffd. That obligation could well lead the justices to uphold the right of gays to marry.

[...]

Another argument is rooted in semantics: marriage is the union of a man and a woman, and so cannot be extended to same-sex couples. They may live together and love one another, but cannot, on this argument, be \ufffdmarried\ufffd. But that is to dodge the real question\ufffdwhy not?\ufffdand to obscure the real nature of marriage, which is a binding commitment, at once legal, social and personal, between two people to take on special obligations to one another. If homosexuals want to make such marital commitments to one another, and to society, then why should they be prevented from doing so while other adults, equivalent in all other ways, are allowed to do so?

[...]

The importance of marriage for society's general health and stability also explains why the commonly mooted alternative to gay marriage\ufffda so-called civil union\ufffdis not enough. Vermont has created this notion, of a legally registered contract between a couple that cannot, however, be called a \ufffdmarriage\ufffd. Some European countries, by legislating for equal legal rights for gay partnerships, have moved in the same direction (Britain is contemplating just such a move, and even the opposition Conservative leader, Michael Howard, says he would support it). Some gays think it would be better to limit their ambitions to that, rather than seeking full social equality, for fear of provoking a backlash\ufffdof the sort perhaps epitomised by Mr Bush this week.

Yet that would be both wrong in principle and damaging for society. Marriage, as it is commonly viewed in society, is more than just a legal contract. Moreover, to establish something short of real marriage for some adults would tend to undermine the notion for all. Why shouldn't everyone, in time, downgrade to civil unions? Now that really would threaten a fundamental institution of civilisation.


[link|http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-102|Lawrence v Texas] was a 6 to 3 decision (and was cited by the Massachusetts SJC). It's too easy to guess the 3. :-/

Cheers,
Scott.
     Bush says he wants a Constitutional Amendment to ... - (Another Scott) - (39)
         A good letter to the editor. - (Another Scott)
         I think Rove has it measured out - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
             The latest poll numbers. - (Another Scott)
         yeah put it in the constitution - (boxley) - (1)
             "Gay married illegal aliens in the Army - you decide!" -NT - (deSitter)
         Oh c'mon.. - (Silverlock) - (23)
             38 -NT - (admin)
             Sure. - (Another Scott) - (8)
                 ERA got me in trouble in college. - (mmoffitt) - (7)
                     Dude, you're my f**king hero! - (deSitter)
                     ah, the ERA... - (rcareaga) - (4)
                         What about poo-munching and golden showers? -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                             ..he says as half of IWETHEY sits down to lunch... -NT - (Steve Lowe)
                             Re: What about poo-munching and golden showers? - (rcareaga)
                         ? the Earned Run Average got to do with the constitution? -NT - (boxley)
                     What DeSitter said! -NT - (jb4)
             I don't get the objections to the whole concept - (tuberculosis) - (12)
                 Agree, but there are "public" implications. - (mmoffitt) - (8)
                     Well, hell, if THAT'S all you're worried about - (jb4) - (7)
                         But they don't have to outlive them! - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                             making sure I dont have a problem with that - (boxley) - (5)
                                 Well if *that's* up for discussion ... - (drewk) - (2)
                                     Someone here mentioned that life expectancy ... - (Another Scott)
                                     now what about equal rights!!!! - (boxley)
                                 Quit whining. - (mmoffitt) - (1)
                                     I believe you are ignoring the time value of money. - (a6l6e6x)
                 Oh, YES IT DOES!!! - (jb4) - (1)
                     which one? 457 of em around here - (boxley)
                 Article that sez the same - (tuberculosis)
         Re: That was on news here in Oz - says Bush may be on a - (dmarker) - (1)
             Re: That was on news here in Oz - says Bush may be on a - (deSitter)
         Voice of the WHAT?!? - (jb4) - (6)
             More than that! - (deSitter)
             thats a major flaw of democracy - (boxley) - (4)
                 The USA isn't a democracy, Bill - (lincoln) - (3)
                     I know it is a Republic and the dems - (boxley) - (2)
                         That old chestnut? - (Silverlock) - (1)
                             horse chestnut backatcha - (boxley)
         The 2/28 Economist's take. - (Another Scott)

The natural enemy of the tightrope walker is the common bee.
113 ms