I've certainly learned a few things about pdf's

Post #142,412 by rickw 2/19/04 5:27:21 PM Reply	I've certainly learned a few things about pdf's didn't know it was licensable, didn't know there's published spec. This doesn't look as interesting as it did last week. WWJD? JWRTFM.
Post #142,413 by ChrisR 2/19/04 5:41:44 PM Reply	PDF is free as long as you abide by the terms of the license. Mostly the license says that Adobe owns the standard and you need to abide by the standard. More particularly, you are supposed to respect the encryption and read/write rights set in the document. I've been rolling my own pdf docs of late because I couldn't find a library that was (a) free and (b) handled large drawings gracefully. Fairly easy to generate pdf once you get used to it. The spec is large, but my application is fairly narrow, so I don't need the overhead of a general purpose library. I can actually generate pdf faster than I can generate html.
Post #142,452 by FuManChu 2/20/04 1:51:59 AM Reply	Any recommendations (following in your steps)? Love to hear the route you took. I could stand to write some custom PDF tools myself.
Post #142,480 by ChrisR 2/20/04 10:46:39 AM Reply	Always the tortorous route Here's some starter links: [link\|http://partners.adobe.com/asn/tech/pdf/specifications.jsp\|Official PDF Specifications] [link\|http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.15/15.09/PDFIntro/\|Intro #1] [link\|http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~wilensky/CS294/lectures/PDF6topage.pdf\|Intro #2] [link\|http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?WebPageID=63\|Intro #3] [link\|http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/189858\|Python Text-to-PDF] Beyond that, I could give some explanations in the scripting conference if you're game. I still need to figure out some things like how to pack a gif image in the file (jpegs are easy). So perhaps once you're up to speed you can return the favor.
Post #142,501 by FuManChu 2/20/04 12:24:02 PM Reply	Thanks! It may be a while on returning the favor... ;)
Post #142,453 by deSitter 2/20/04 2:02:09 AM Reply	Re: PDF is free Right, think ps is this way as well. Microsoft: "We are shitty developers but we hide our formats. Pay up." Adobe: "He's the format, good luck, but we've already solved a lot of problems for you, in case you want to buy something that already works that is. Oh, here's a free full-featured viewer as well. And over here, we have this entire DP setup for everything from A to Z. Did we mention our software is not tied to Windows? And we are nice people as well! Thank you for using PDF!" -drl
Post #142,454 by Steve Lowe 2/20/04 2:05:19 AM Reply	Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell? ----- Steve
Post #142,531 by deSitter 2/20/04 2:28:36 PM Reply	Re: Adobe NOT nice. Sklyarov ring a bell? That had to be an aberration. I've dealt with Adobe tech support, they were unbelieveably nice. Their products are great and they work. In this world what more can you ask? -drl
Post #142,532 by ben_tilly 2/20/04 2:30:20 PM 2/20/04 2:32:01 PM Reply	Are you defining a custom reality again? Just because some aspects of a company (or person) are good doesn't mean that others can't be very bad (from your point of view). I see no evidence that Skylarov was any sort of aberration for Adobe. Being nice is a strategic choice for them, which means that being not-nice is also a strategic choice. "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi] Edited by ben_tilly Feb. 20, 2004, 02:32:01 PM EST Expand All History
Post #142,541 by deSitter 2/20/04 2:51:43 PM 2/20/04 3:12:30 PM Reply	Re: Are you defining a custom reality again? Have you ever bought an eBook from Adobe? Clearly this was one aspect of the company in some kind of sideline activity. And the case was prosecuted on behalf of the government, not Adobe: [link\|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_elcomsoft_faq.html#ChargedWith\|http://www.eff.org/I....html#ChargedWith] Could it be that the government ran amok in a stupid misidentification of this issue as one of "furriners stealin' our 'Merkin sawftware"? At some point Adobe may have been told "stay out of it, this is bigger than you". He was acquitted, and apparently the issue is decided. Edit: Apparently Adobe wanted to drop the case five days after Skylarov was arrested. The government declined. The villians are where they always are - in charge. Dmitry Sklyarov was arrested in Las Vegas on July 16, 2001, and charged with trafficking in, and offering to the public, a software program that could circumvent technological protections on copyrighted material, under section 1201(b)(1)(A) of the U.S. Copyright Act, which was made law by the 1998 Digital Millennium Copyright Act (the DMCA). He was also charged with aiding and abetting his employer, Russian software development company, Elcom Ltd (a.k.a. ElcomSoft Co. Ltd), to do that. Dmitry was held in jail until August 6, 2001, when he was released on bail of $50,000, on condition that he remained in Northern California. ...... After EFF met with Adobe representatives on 20 July, Adobe joined with the EFF in recommending the release of Dmitry from federal custody, and withdrew its support for the criminal complaint against him. [Joint Press Release]. Clearly the government ran amok because they don't understand software or information technology. What else is new? -drl Edited by deSitter Feb. 20, 2004, 03:12:30 PM EST Expand All History
Post #142,566 by ben_tilly 2/20/04 4:59:55 PM Reply	I remember the history there Adobe requested the lawsuit and was originally involved. Then they got picketed to hell, and after a month of pressure, they took their name off of the lawsuit. The government continued prosecuting the case. Whether or not this was at Adobe's private request is an open question. Publically Adobe requested that the lawsuit be dropped. Lemme google for some links. [link\|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/us_v_elcomsoft_faq.html\|http://www.eff.org/I...lcomsoft_faq.html] [link\|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/20010707_complaint.html\|http://www.eff.org/I...07_complaint.html] [link\|http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/US_v_Elcomsoft/20010723_eff_adobe_sklyarov_pr.html\|http://www.eff.org/I..._sklyarov_pr.html] In my books, Adobe does not get a free ride for having dropped out of the case that they requested be brought. If they establish a pattern of "good behaviour", then my opinion of them will change, but until I've been convinced that they are now against the DMCA etc, they remain grey at best in my books. Sometimes my interests align with theirs (they have no reason to like the dominance of Microsoft), and sometimes now (see comments about the DMCA). Of course I doubt that they care much what I think. (Except in so far as I find myself in a position to recommend or not recommend their software.) Cheers, Ben "good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link\|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html\|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Post #142,556 by inthane-chan 2/20/04 3:37:51 PM Reply	On Adobe support. I discovered a fairly major flaw in Acrobat Reader 5+6 late last year. Called Adobe, told them I was calling in a bug report, they wanted to charge me to report a bug. Imagine that. Now we're using GhostScript and GSView, and my, do they work fine at the exact same thing. "I'll stop calling this crew 'Orwellian' when they stop using 1984 as an operations manual." - J. Bradford DeLong
Post #142,561 by deSitter 2/20/04 4:43:29 PM Reply	Re: On Adobe support. That's funny, I reported a bug in FrameMaker while we were under a deadline to produce a document, and they shipped us a fixed copy overnight on their dime. Your mileage may vary. -drl
Post #142,927 by rickw 2/23/04 7:46:07 PM Reply	What a coinkydink I just installed gsview about a half hour ago. I was prompted by acroread suddenly ceasing to function, and a combination of the skylarov case and that amazingly intrusive splash screen made me look for something else. Never going back. WWJD? JWRTFM.
Post #142,937 by deSitter 2/23/04 8:09:58 PM Reply	Re: What a coinkydink You will if you want to publish math papers. GS has weird font behavior. -drl
Post #143,030 by rickw 2/24/04 1:45:27 PM Reply	Noted. I did notice that the fonts aren't as pretty. WWJD? JWRTFM.
Post #142,518 by tuberculosis 2/20/04 1:33:10 PM Reply	ps is not free But they are very similar. This is a big part of why Apple pitched Display PostScript and implemented Display PDF for their graphics rendering technology. The DPS license fees were killing them. The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters. -- Alan Kay
Post #142,928 by rickw 2/23/04 7:48:03 PM Reply	Have you checked out openoffice for pdf's? I have not yet. I'd be curious to hear if you've tried it. What prompted you to roll your own? WWJD? JWRTFM.
Post #142,994 by ChrisR 2/24/04 10:37:01 AM Reply	My requirements are on the server side and I'm not sure how well openoffice would perform converting pages in that environment. Biggest problem I have is that my drawings can get very large, being many pages long and wide. Most of the software I looked at could handle the variable length but always wanted to chop off anything too wide. So, for the sake of getting the document chopped up like I wanted (as well as efficiency), I just decided to reverse engineer pdf as best as i could.
Post #143,031 by rickw 2/24/04 1:47:19 PM Reply	More curiosity: what language? WWJD? JWRTFM.
Post #143,161 by ChrisR 2/24/04 11:08:34 PM Reply	Any scripting language will do But I'd prefer to shift any conversation along these lines to the [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=143160\|Scripting Forum].

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