Post #140,553
2/8/04 11:11:15 AM
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Future excuses for war?
Dude, this *is* an excuse for war. We'd be very well within our rights to openly intervene in Pakistan right now.
I admit the US position doesn't make a lot of sense (State Department again?) But your interpretation is at least as silly.
----------------------------------------------------------------
DEAL WITH IT.
"YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!" - Howard Dean
"How can I go to the bathroom when my people are in bondage?" - Saddam Hussein
"If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson
Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11.
"I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #140,555
2/8/04 11:20:32 AM
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Marlowe is Brit Hume - question, Brit
Bush admits now he attacked Saddam because "he was a madman".
Why don't we go after N. Korea, then Burma, then top it off with Cuba? Huh? Why not? Blood for cigars! Would you support a unilateral invasion of Cuba to rid the world of the madman Castro? He's right on our shorestep after all. He has a real infrastructure, and I'll bet he's got a lot more than 7 pounds of cyanide salts..
-drl
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Post #140,586
2/8/04 2:26:41 PM
2/8/04 2:29:12 PM
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I'll tell you why not
Because if Bush did all that, then he would be too close to Hitler.
Speaking of Hitler, Hey Marlowe, I think I've figured out why you were comparing the U.S. to a Nazi regime! I've been doing a lot of thinking about this, as well as some reading on your site.
I had to really work at it, but I see it now. You see Bush as the "Hitler" type who is "invading" countries for what he claims is our good... (same as the Third Reich's argument for creating the super race), not their good. And then he talks about invading Iran, or Korea or anyone else who isn't "being like we think they they should be", and therefore he appears to be no more than a dictator.
The main difference between our armies and Hitler's armies is that unlike Hitler's armies, the regime won't take your families and lock them up, or shoot you, or them if you don't comply. In the case of the U.S. soldiers, if they desert they face a court-martial or worse, but not usually a firing squad, and their familes are safe.
However, the Hitler armies followed orders because of fear. And the U.S. armies follow orders because they have loyalty to the U.S. Even when they may not agree with what they are being told to do, they feel they joined up to do what they were told.
Is this the same as blindly following orders in the Hitler Regime? No, but I see the resemblance you've pointed out before. In order for the U.S. armies to rebel against their leaders, there would have to be a collective effort on most or all of the soldiers to refuse to carry out whatever it was.
I don't actually see Bush as Hitler, no, but I do see him increasing U.S.authority over other countries, one by one.
Am I close to what you have been trying to say to us about the U.S. being no better than the Third Reich?
Nightowl >8#
Edit: Changed I figured out to I think I've figured out.; and government to U.S.
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
Edited by Nightowl
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:29:12 PM EST
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Post #140,590
2/8/04 2:58:38 PM
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Re: I'll tell you why not
This is sort of admirable, that you'd give him a "fair" hearing - but you can cut to the chase with a few glances.
1) The things he claims are refuted over and over by facts.
2) The articles he links as representative of his group, are refuted over and over again by facts. Consider this article he links, from before the election in 2000:
[link|http://www.olimu.com/Journalism/Texts/Commentary/NewClass.htm|http://www.olimu.com...tary/NewClass.htm]
A Gore victory would consolidate the New Class domination of the Clinton years, make it unassailable. By his powers of appointment, Gore would make New Class values paramount in the judiciary and executive, as they already are in academia and the media.
Well the actual Gore victory was stolen in a defacto coup d'etat. What are the results?
There certainly is domination by a single class - the wealthy.
Their values are certainly "paramount in the judiciary and executive", and now also in media. Academia has no "values" as such - this is just a bogeyman they spin to support their unsupportable arguments.
BTW notice the self-consciously inflated tone of the writing. All these people see themselves as Neo-Aristotelians.
They are liars. Bill Clinton and his wife are famously mendacious.
Who's a liar? WMD spin anyone? ("Mendacious" - these people are born with silver thesauruses up their asses.)
In fact a disdain for the truth is fundamental to New Class values, and key to their obtaining high political office in a democracy.
The entire Republican worldview is based on deception and spin-doctoring designed to isolate the wealthy and entrench their domination over working people.
They are self-righteous.
Take a 10 minute glance at the smirking, self-satisfied drones on Faux News. Think Pat Robertson. He talks directly with God.
They are hedonists.
Cheney goes on canned duck hunts with a Supreme, where the only object is animal murder - not hunting as such. This is not only hedonism, it's sadism.
They hate the past.
Bush has trampled on every Presidential tradition imaginable - particularly the one that states - the CIC does not salute, nor does he don uniforms. The leaders of banana republic juntas wear uniforms. Everything in the neocon agenda shows an active hatred of the past - a willful disregard of history and tradition that shows their colors - radical collectivists.
They hate masculinity.
Compare the fake-ass pussy Bush with the real man Kerry. Even Clinton, as much as I despise him, could get it up.
They hate commerce.
The economy is destroyed, the trade deficit is gigantic, our manufacturing base is ruined. The neocons are the ones who hate commerce, because they confuse commerce with money.
And so it goes. Every single one of his links can be deconstructed in the face of facts and shown for what they are, stupid self-inflated bullshit by people who hide behind meaningless sentences as cover for their quivering fear and paranoia.
-drl
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Post #140,633
2/8/04 11:28:00 PM
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I do realize that
However, I was not referring to facts or even attempting to refute his statements, just get a little glimmer of where they might be coming from. I don't understand all the political ramifications of every link or article, they are entirely too complex for me to get much more than the barest understanding of. However, I was trying hard to remember the last President we have had who outright decided to go to war on a country without the support of Nato or having clearly been attacked first.
I wracked my brain, but I could not think of any. Even in WW2 we didn't actually join in until we almost had no choice. We drug our heels despite being asked for help.
Can anyone think of any other instance in history where a President declared war on a country without that country clearly attacking us first? I'm a little blurry on Kosovo and also on Grenada, but I still don't think we "invaded" either of those, did we?
My actual goal isn't to agree with what Marlowe posts, but to try and get some understanding of why he posts it, and what he's thinking about it. :) That's the first key to good communication, understanding. :) I think maybe he just wants to be understood. Maybe not, but I won't know till I try.
Nightowl >8#
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
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Post #140,636
2/8/04 11:51:16 PM
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Re: I do realize that
There was none. There were cases of shady starts - almost all of them - particularly the Mexican War and the Spanish War - what Bush did is unprecedented.
-drl
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Post #140,638
2/8/04 11:58:01 PM
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Thanks, that's what I thought
I was pretty sure it was unprecedented... a first, if you will.
Nightowl >8#
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
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Post #140,595
2/8/04 3:40:46 PM
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Re: I'll tell you why not
Speaking of Hitler, Hey Marlowe, I think I've figured out why you were comparing the U.S. to a Nazi regime! I've been doing a lot of thinking about this, as well as some reading on your site. I'm sure Marlowe falls into the group denying that there is any comparison between our actions and Hitler's. The main difference between our armies and Hitler's armies is that unlike Hitler's armies, the regime won't take your families and lock them up, or shoot you, or them if you don't comply. Actually, we did do a bit of arresting families and relatives. And we have been using colective punishment against property, knocking down houses and taking valuables from people that are just family, relatives or possible supporters of people attacking the US. However, the Hitler armies followed orders because of fear. And the U.S. armies follow orders because they have loyalty to the U.S. Even when they may not agree with what they are being told to do, they feel they joined up to do what they were told. That is not correct, much of the effectivness of the German army was built on loyalty. I suspect you are thinking of the Russian army, who had to station special police units behind the front lines to arrest and shoot anybody that tried flee. Jay
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Post #140,634
2/8/04 11:36:03 PM
2/8/04 11:38:49 PM
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Well, my impression has been the opposite
I'm sure Marlowe falls into the group denying that there is any comparison between our actions and Hitler's. He refers to "goosestepping" he's outright called people Nazis on here, and made any other number of references that to me indicate the opposite. Marlowe, am I off base? If so, please set me straight, because I mean no disrespect. The main difference between our armies and Hitler's armies is that unlike Hitler's armies, the regime won't take your families and lock them up, or shoot you, or them if you don't comply.
Actually, we did do a bit of arresting families and relatives. And we have been using colective punishment against property, knocking down houses and taking valuables from people that are just family, relatives or possible supporters of people attacking the US. But weren't those families or relatives of suspected terrorists? I'm only referring to U.S. soldiers families or relatives, and only being arrested or stuff if they desert, or refuse to comply. I'm not referring to anyone else. That is not correct, much of the effectivness of the German army was built on loyalty. I suspect you are thinking of the Russian army, who had to station special police units behind the front lines to arrest and shoot anybody that tried flee. Well, I don't know where you get your sources from, but I read an extremely large number of books on Germany, Hitler, WW2 and the Nazis, and many written by Nazis, while researching my WW2 novel that I wrote but never published. MANY MANY people felt oppressed and forced to be part of the army, many only obeyed due to fear. There were many also who were indeed loyal, but the majority of those did not know of all the horrible atrocities that were being done to the jews and other persons. Many of those who did, tried to look the other way and pretend they didn't see it, and many expressed after the war that they wished they could have stopped being a part of it, but knew they would endanger their families if they tried, if not lose their own lives. They also spoke of being loyal to Germany, but not so much of the loyalty to the purpose of the Third Reich. Nightowl >8# Edit: clarified paragraph 5 to say U.S. soldiers.
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
Edited by Nightowl
Feb. 8, 2004, 11:38:49 PM EST
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Post #140,644
2/9/04 12:17:08 AM
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hmm any of your research involve penal battalion 27?
and everywhere the great Curse of the New World, the American Child, in all its raucous, spoiled, undiciplined, selfish ghastliness, the female specimens keeping up an incessant high-pitched whine and the male infants racketing like cowpokes on payday. There's nothing wrong with grown Americans, by and large you wont find heartier men or bonnier women anywhere, but the only remedy I can see for the children is to run Herod for President.
Sir Harold Flashman esquire VC OBE
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #140,645
2/9/04 12:22:31 AM
2/9/04 12:26:05 AM
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I don't believe so.
I focused mostly on the Internment camps, concentration camps, the notorious Nazi prison whose name currently escapes me, and the relationship between prisoner and captive. I also peripherally focused on the US Army Air Corps and the 8th Divison of that.
Edit: I also read any number of books about the actuality and makeup of the Third Reich, as well as about Hitler himself and insights into his past, i.e. why he became who he became.
My novel was essentially was about man's inhumanity to man.
Nightowl >8#
P.S. What was Penal Battalion 27? I looked for it online but didn't pull anything up. Should I search on it separately?
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
Edited by Nightowl
Feb. 9, 2004, 12:26:05 AM EST
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Post #140,652
2/9/04 12:43:00 AM
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No it is a well known sorta hoax which could lead you astray
dangit brain freeze, sven hassel, I know someone I used to work for as a body guard who was physically present at Stalingrad, he still had his paybooks and drivers license signed by herr adolf himself.
Sven Hassel was a Danish person who claims to have been in stalingrad but has been persued by nay sayers ever since his books got published, Since he appears to be a dedicated communist in my mind that defrocking could well be part of the cold war garbage. However my friend who was also in a penalty battalion in the same place said no freakin way would they be given tanks, due to his position as a driver for a defrocked S.S. general named "Thorpe"in charge of a Luftwaffe ant-aircraft unit that was converted to tank killing he was all over the kettle and never ran in to such a unit. My friend got stitched by a heavy machine gun and lost all use of right arm and part use of left which was a million dollar wound at the time as he couldnt raise a gun to fire it. He was triaged and let go at one of the last evacuation flights from the airport befor it was closed. His first hand Stories are horrific and should be published but he suffered a stroke before he offered publishing rights. His family prefers ignominity and refuses to allow me to publish his memoirs. I checked his veracity via his Soldaten book, his wounds and when he was passed out whether he had his blood type tattoed under his armpit. If it was there he might not have woken up. We joked about that later that it was a good thing that wasnt the case.
thanx,
bill
thanx,
bill
and everywhere the great Curse of the New World, the American Child, in all its raucous, spoiled, undiciplined, selfish ghastliness, the female specimens keeping up an incessant high-pitched whine and the male infants racketing like cowpokes on payday. There's nothing wrong with grown Americans, by and large you wont find heartier men or bonnier women anywhere, but the only remedy I can see for the children is to run Herod for President.
Sir Harold Flashman esquire VC OBE
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #140,658
2/9/04 12:54:57 AM
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Ah okay
Well if it was an internet hoax, all my research was done many years back, before I'd ever heard of the internet, in the 1980's and I only used actual books from actual libraries and stores. :)
So I'd never heard of it.
Nightowl >8#
"To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are."
Eric Hoffer
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Post #140,711
2/9/04 11:44:50 AM
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not a net hoax, real one
book was legion of the damned even got a movie made out of it.
[link|http://www.dansmith.info/hassel/topics.asp?ID=47|http://www.dansmith..../topics.asp?ID=47]
thanx,
bill
and everywhere the great Curse of the New World, the American Child, in all its raucous, spoiled, undiciplined, selfish ghastliness, the female specimens keeping up an incessant high-pitched whine and the male infants racketing like cowpokes on payday. There's nothing wrong with grown Americans, by and large you wont find heartier men or bonnier women anywhere, but the only remedy I can see for the children is to run Herod for President.
Sir Harold Flashman esquire VC OBE
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #140,665
2/9/04 3:09:17 AM
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Re: Well, my impression has been the opposite
I'm sure Marlowe falls into the group denying that there is any comparison between our actions and Hitler's.
He refers to "goosestepping" he's outright called people Nazis on here, and made any other number of references that to me indicate the opposite. Marlowe, am I off base? If so, please set me straight, because I mean no disrespect.
Ah, I see where you are confused now. Marlowe has called some people facists, Stalanists, Nazis and such. But he is actually a big fan of the current president and our actions in Iraq. The people he calls "Nazis" are moderate to left wing people who opposed the invasion of Iraq. As for the German army, when I said loyalty, I didn't mean to imply loyalty to the Nazi party. The dedicated core of the Nazi party was always a small minority in Germany. At the start, most of the soldiers where motivated by loyalty to Germany (nationalism) or by loyalty to the army itself (militarism). It was only in the second half of the war that fear became a major motivating force among the German army.
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Post #143,325
2/25/04 6:15:51 PM
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Well, we all what group you fall into.
[link|http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame88.html|Panties in a perpetual bunch.]
----------------------------------------------------------------
DEAL WITH IT.
"YAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!" - Howard Dean
"How can I go to the bathroom when my people are in bondage?" - Saddam Hussein
"If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson
Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11.
"I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #143,428
2/26/04 8:23:17 AM
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Do try and make sense.
Perhaps that will lead you to having sufficient courage to put your name to your writing.
Until that day:
You don't exist, sorry.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #140,594
2/8/04 3:25:07 PM
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I didn't mean Pakistan.
When I said this would provide future excuses for war, I didn't mean against Pakistan. Rather, Pakistan can now discover evidence that they sold nuclear secrets and materials to country x, and we have suddenly have a reason to invade country x.
Heck, it may even work better then the reasons we had to invade Iraq, because the US can have Pakistan actually sell some supplies to the country. That way there is little risk of the no discovery problem happening again.
To be honest though, I think it has far more to do with keeping Musharraf in power then anything else. If Musharraf falls out of power the country is sure to fall into radical Muslim hands right now, and the idea of them getting their hands on actually existing nuclear armed missles is enough to make the US put up with a lot of crap.
As for trying to blame this on the State Department, the State Department does not make this sort of decision on their own. The decision to accept Pakistan's story would have had to come from the top.
Jay
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