I fear you may be missing a serious shift that is occuring

Post #139,648 by dmarker 2/3/04 7:09:17 PM Reply	I fear you may be missing a serious shift that is occuring Manual programming and the traditional analyst role has no future. Yes, we have talked for years about how tools will eventually shift solution development from rooms of app developers to business savvy people using tools, the point is, that shift is actually starting because the underlying technologies needed to make it happen are here. This looks like another era of when a major shift is going to occur in an industry & some will deny it & other will adapt. Life's cycles. Doug Marker
Post #139,658 by Arkadiy 2/3/04 8:51:57 PM Reply	Trained people spend weeks producing buggy unusable code at $30 per hour. Business analysts will do it much more expensively, much slower and at even worse quality. -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #139,681 by dmarker 2/3/04 11:50:11 PM Reply	One of us hasn't been to China :-) From IBM newsclip IBM's involvement in China dates back to 1934, and IBM opened its China office in 1992. Today, IBM China has 14 branch offices, two fully-owned subsidiaries and eight joint ventures. One of IBM's eight research centers is located in China, where more than 300 technical and research talents are developing the latest technology solutions such as pervasive computing and wireless solutions, and IBM's customer services center is the largest of its kind in China. This is just one such venture. Doug M
Post #139,719 by Arkadiy 2/4/04 9:49:21 AM Reply	I do agree that real programmers happen everywhere. It should be easier to find 300 good people in China or Russia (may be not in India, the cream may have been off that market). However, it's hard to find 3,000 good people in one place, and it's impossible to find 30,000. I do object very strongly that Bloomberg approach to developement (hire a 1000 "programmers" at 1/3 the price to do a job that a 100 good people could (and should) do) will work just because the prices are lower now. And I'll never believe that business people will ever write code. Some will, sure. Talent happens everywhere in that respect, too. But you introduce an "if", and you're down the slippery slope. You add "for", and it's an avalanche. Then the "while" falls on you, and you're buried. I am not even talking data structures. -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #139,823 by FuManChu 2/4/04 6:13:56 PM Reply	ICLRPD for the programmers among us (new thread) Created as new thread #139822 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=139822\|ICLRPD for the programmers among us] I was one of the original authors of VB, and I wouldn't use VB for a text processing program. :-) Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
Post #139,852 by dmarker 2/4/04 7:26:48 PM Reply	Re: managed to be there when IBM started up, also India Have a lot of interesting stories I could tell about working with the Chinese in those early days (1st went there in 1989 just after TienAnMen). They were a PITB to deal with at first and the ones IBM hired could be accused of being an 'arrogant elite'. But the changes that occured there between 1990 & today as so staggering as to contradict mt early opinions as to how far they had to shift to 'get real'. The people one deals with there today are so transformed that the 15 year interval seems like a complete lifetime. IN the past 3 years, the programmers my employer of that period empolyed (HK Telecom), were right on top of all the latest trends and technologies. If anything they seemed to be forging ahead compared to what I knew of IT back in Australia and what IT is still like back here now. Re India In the 1980s - I often had to train groups of Indian programmers in CICS Cobol & DB2, in New Zealand, brought in to do bulk contracts for short periods. They were also 'best of best' type people. I also spent time in India at different places and was always staggered by how hard the kids had to work to get on 'top' academically. (Saw same in China). I would never want to work continuosly as hard as I saw HK people work (one bad habit I saw in HK was that even when very sick, they would come to work (& spray germs on the rest of us), alsoIi often saw them forgo leave, they would rather be at work except for special family type holidays). In Australia today there is a political bruha boiling over the fact that Australia's big Telecom company (1/2 govt owned) recently cut 400 or so IT professional jobs by outsourcing a chunk of the work to IBM who let the actual contract to an IBM joint venture with TISL (Tata Information System Ltd) in Bangalore India. Tata are an Indian conglomorate every bit as big as the traditional Jap & Korean Zaibatsu & Kiretsu. The IT spokespeople here in Australia are making a lot of noise about this deal & some polititians are demanding the contract be reversed (no hope). Things are changing for us in IT, it is a good time to keep a finger on the pulse of IT evolution as roles are undergoing significant changes. Doug Marker
Post #139,956 by Arkadiy 2/5/04 8:38:03 AM Reply	I think we're in agreement here To veer a bit to Marxist side, the divide is not between American (Austarlian) and Indian(Chinese) programmers. The divide is between good and bad ones. And the good ones will not stay cheap for long, even in India or China. Just you wait. -- Select [link\|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30\|here].
Post #139,660 by Silverlock 2/3/04 8:52:49 PM Reply	ICLRPD (new thread) Created as new thread #139659 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=139659\|ICLRPD] ----------------------------------------- "If you don't vote, it's your fault!" jb4

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