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New Good find, Inthane!____"Seven Days in May" redux
Yes, under the guise of a flavor of er 'conservatism' and the demonization of 'liberalism' (once meaning: possession of a reasonably open mind to new ideas) we have spawned the current usage in which neither of these words bears any resemblance to common usage over centuries!

We Muricans have fucked with language all along - spin / marketing is our daily noise background and.. the measure of how little respect we (actually) have for, that proper use of language which alone permits honest communication of any kind. Make certain key words fuzzy, all-inclusive thus meaningless:

You have thus killed one more possibility of being understood, evoking reasonable and fruitful discussion: and instead produced cant, as in most all pseudo-'political' discussions today. Here at IWE, too - too often.

I haven't read this book yet, of course - but I will. And I recall those days and the hysteria, so reminiscent of the just-ended [??] decade of McCarthyism; fucking with words / dehumanizing of those with different ideas. I am neither shocked nor surprised at the possibility that this book is genuine, documented and reflects actual plans of our omnipresent nut-cases in positions of Authority. We so love to lie to ourselves about our proclivities!

Seven Days in May (later a movie with Burt Lancaster magnificently portraying the heavy) captures perfectly the mindset alluded to in this review of, Body of Secrets. It describes a planned military coup against a 'not Tough-enough\ufffd for Us' president, and features many incisive vignettes of "how, often we do things here".

Murica is in no way immune to the tawdry dealings of the hypocritical - which we produce in similar proportions to other societies. Pity we dare not teach our school children about the flip-side of the many glowing attributes we ascribe to "US". This leaves them unprepared to deal *today* with the growing hegemony of Corporate droids whose only allegiance is to themselves - worldwide. Or to next deal sanely with this present situation: in many ways larger a threat to personal freedom than any events since Hitler, Stalin et al.

9/11 may as well bring out the worst in Murican culture as the best, we already see in such utterances from that Admin lackey who advised (already!)

..better Watch what you Say, next.. [!!!]

As Edward R. Murrow said to his cohorts on the eve of his broadcast shaming McCarthy, the proximate final cause of McC's downfall into deserved oblivion - this as they each tried to dredge up from memory.. any past act any had done? which might be used against Murrow = ad hominem when you have no real argument:

Gentlemen, the terror is right here in this room..

Let us not forget Our History -- this time around. I've lived through more of it than most here - and I see quite uncomfortable symptoms already. We have yet to heed Gandhi's remark about Western Civilization..



Ashton
New About Gandhi's remark.
Yes, it was very clever. But in retrospect, it kind of looks like kind a cheap shot. India is the only major democracy where there are routinely casualties at elections. And what do they need that nuke for? And then there's Kashmir.

Okay, those last two are attributable to external aggression. So why aren't they resisting nonviolently?

Today's India is known more for its shantys than for its shantih.

....How's this for satyagraha?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New The contraditions are fair game, I suppose..
But let's not make the same massive error as Pols everywhere here, cannot avoid making hourly:

The Murican Peepul think ____

I have *no idea* what The Indian Peepul think, but they are smart enough not to use that phrase (I think - no telling what modernization has produced)

Gandhi was.. Gandhi - his most powerful 'weapon of influence' (when all other suasion wasn't enough) was simply: to fast towards death. It worked at least twice - both (all) sides with whatever axes to grind, realized that he was an actually indispensable! person if Any side was to exercise influence in a semi-stable and new 'country'.

A nuke wouldn't have been an option for G. IMhO. Are you chiding the present country / rulers - for not having a / acting like a -- Gandhi?

If so - which Great One are We emulating, these days, locally.. ?

(Personally I'd prefer to live amongst relatively sane and peaceful shanties than - in a Titanium office tower with PHBs stalking hallways and arbitrarily screwing with peoples lives hourly - for (just their) fun & profit. If those were the only two choices)

We're fucking well the Biggest and the Baddest kid on the block, but 'wisdom' we're in short supply of - as is India sans Gandhi - and lots of other places run by slogans and spin, chasing more toys than the neighbor has.



A.
New Pacifism is a weapon of conscience
It works.

If the opponent has a conscience.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Even then it's risky.
Witness the massacre at Amritsar.

One biographer (Ashe?) strongly suggested that the Raj et al were in a very bad emotional state because of the World War. Gandhi pushed them too far and they snapped.

Which of course, is no excuse. There can be no excuse. But it is an explanation. And definitely something to keep in mind.


[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Chatham Islands: Moriori v. Maoiri
The Brits won the battle but lost the war: India gained freedom. Amritsar was seen as a pivotal event.

A better example would be the [link|http://www.culture.co.nz/moriori/moriori4.htm|Chatham Islands], where 900 Maoiri (New Zealand natives) obliterated the native Moirori of some 2000 individuals. Though of common stock, the two cultures were enemies. And had entirely different cultural responses to conflict.
The story is told in [link|http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/diamond/diamond_p1.html|Jared Diamond]'s [link|http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/06/15/reviews/970615.15shreevt.html|Guns, Germs, and Steel].
[A] ship carrying 500 Maori armed with guns, clubs, and axes arrived [on November 19, 1835, followed by] a shipload of 400 more Maori. Groups of Maori began to walk through Moriori settlements, announcing that th eMoriori were now their slaves, and killing those who objected....[T]he Moriori had a tradition of resolving disputes peacefully...[and] decided in a council meeting not to fight back but to offer peace....

Before the Moriori could deliver that offer, the Maori attacked en masse...[T]hey killed hundreds, ... cooked and ate many of the bodies, and enslaved all the others, killing most...over the next few years....

[Explaining cultural differences, Diamond writes on the environmental impacts on culture.]

Maori tropical crops could not grow in the Chatham's cold climate, and th ecolonists had no alternative except to revert to being hunter-gatherers.....[T]he Chathams are relatively small and remote islands, capable of supporting a total population of only about 2,000 hunter-gatherers. With no other accessible islands to colonize, the Moriori had to remain in the Chathams, and to learn how to get along with each other. They did so by renouncing war, and they reduced potential conflicts from overpopulation by castrating some male infants. The result was a small, unwarlike population....

In contrast, the....Maori who remained in New Zealand [grew to a population of] 100,000.... They developed locally dense populations chronically engated in ferocious wars with neighboring populations.

In this case, according to Diamond, two cultures emerged, one warlike, one not. Conscience wasn't at play. The outcome was inevitable.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Re: The outcome is ...

That the All Blacks have a fearsome reputation as rugby players.

The NZ army is approx 60% maori based & also has a fearsome reputation (the N Viets avoided them like the plague).

NZ whites never actually defeated the Maori tribes in war (the Maoris usually won battles) so by mid 1800s resorted to signing treaties that the whites later ignored & over time took the country by stealth - in recent years much land has been handed back and billions in reparations paid over, because it was so blatant as to how the white take-over was carried out.

The Maoris were comprable in a sense, to the Japanese but about 800 years behind in refining their life style. Both are tribal & warlike. Both treat women like sh**. Maori language is riddled with militaristic terminology due to the constant warfare that made up their lives. In fact most Maoris I knew remembered their own history in terms of tribal alliegences and great battles.

The northern tribe called the Ngati Whatua (sp) are still hated by the Waikato tribes (middle of Nth Island) over a battle fought in the early 1800s where the 1st tribe led by famous chief Te Hongi, used muskets for the 1st time & slaughtered his unprepared tribal enemies. & so on & so on.

The Moriori story is a very sad one.

Cheers

Doug

     A dimension of 'the war being fought' - (Ashton) - (28)
         Re: This might sound tough but .... - (dmarker2) - (12)
             Never suggested pacifism (!) - (Ashton) - (10)
                 Re: Trouble with the devil is - (dmarker2) - (9)
                     Amen.. er salaam, effendi :-\ufffd - (Ashton) - (8)
                         Your Touchy Feely Bullshit Doesn't Work Any More -NT - (deSitter) - (7)
                             Obviously yours isn't working either. - (Ashton) - (6)
                                 Hey, - (deSitter) - (5)
                                     Heh.. are you asking - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Hey, I'm honest. - (marlowe)
                                     Nah... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                         But.. my delusions are nicer than your delusions_________:-\ufffd -NT - (Ashton) - (1)
                                             Natch ;) -NT - (bepatient)
             B52s - Love Shack - (deSitter)
         Re: A dimension of 'the war being fought' - (mhuber) - (14)
             Yes, Dr. Seuss would do! - (Ashton) - (13)
                 The propaganda war has already begun. - (marlowe) - (12)
                     OT: Why do you still post on K5? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                         Out of sheer bloody-mindedness. - (marlowe)
                     Kind of like this one? - (inthane-chan) - (9)
                         Good find, Inthane!____"Seven Days in May" redux - (Ashton) - (6)
                             About Gandhi's remark. - (marlowe) - (5)
                                 The contraditions are fair game, I suppose.. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                     Pacifism is a weapon of conscience - (kmself) - (3)
                                         Even then it's risky. - (marlowe) - (2)
                                             Chatham Islands: Moriori v. Maoiri - (kmself) - (1)
                                                 Re: The outcome is ... - (dmarker2)
                         Re: I don't want to believe this type of stuff but .... - (dmarker2) - (1)
                             As to any 'good' it might do - (Ashton)

But he doesn't look quite skeletal enough for both to be true, does he?
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