Post #132,728
12/30/03 4:20:50 AM
|
Not I, and I have no intentions of doing so
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #132,736
12/30/03 8:37:39 AM
|
Is this MSFT hatred only?
Or is there some other reason why you think .Net is so horrible? Personally, as crappy as J2EE is, I can't believe .Net is any worse. And, at least with .Net, you can get the project done before you need to retire.
bcnu, Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
|
Post #132,755
12/30/03 9:41:57 AM
|
We've been there before.
I already told you how to fix that.
And yes, .Net is that crappy.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
|
Post #132,761
12/30/03 10:08:30 AM
|
Let me explain something to you
.Net is still half-baked betaware, and Mono is one or two steps behind Microsoft's .Net as it appears to be.
That law firm I used to work for went all .Net and since 2001 are still trying to convert all their apps and ASP pages to .Net and are running into walls, and finding that .Net won't do what Microsoft said it would. My replacements already got let go, and they are constantly hiring new people to replace the ones they are firing. Don't blame the people, blame the technology. When I search the Usegroups for that law firm name, I see IT people asking questions about .Net and why parts of it do not work right. Didn't Slugbug start a thread on this somewhere?
I assume Mono is not that much better.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #132,763
12/30/03 10:13:16 AM
|
No, let me explain something to YOU.
What applications have you written with .NET? What parts of the framework have you used? What worked? What didn't? Was this developer error or a genuine problem with the .NET framework?
When did you evaluate Mono? What parts of it are behind .NET? What platform did you try it on? Did you use a current release, or an older version? Are you aware of what Mono actually is?
When will you stop hand-waving and come up with something concrete?
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #132,785
12/30/03 1:00:19 PM
|
Poor humor ahead.
Sure, I know what Mono is... I had it when I was a 9th grader, way back in the old days. ANd I have used Net to catch fish...
Any more clarification needed?
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...]
"All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-25
|
Post #132,786
12/30/03 1:01:56 PM
|
Don't make me come over there...
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
|
Post #132,960
12/31/03 10:01:45 AM
|
I did warn you.... ;-)
"All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-25
|
Post #132,840
12/30/03 4:08:04 PM
|
Second hand knowledge
My information is second hand knowledge from programmers that I know who develop in it and don't like it. I haven't met anyone who did. I've tried to get them to join here, but they don't seem to want to for some reason.
Would that I could afford Visual Studio.NET and try it out myself, my only experience was with a Beta version that expired. Are you offering to buy me a copy? :) Just kidding.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #132,848
12/30/03 4:24:33 PM
|
VS.Net 60 day Trial: $4.95
[link|http://www.microsoft.com/products/info/product.aspx?view=22&type=ovr&pcid=9fdcc2af-6b86-4ee8-9b71-90cebe8626e6|http://www.microsoft...9b71-90cebe8626e6]
-- Chris Altmann
|
Post #132,860
12/30/03 5:47:32 PM
|
Ordered, thank you very much
now I can try it out and see if I want to buy the Academic Version for $100 as I am a college student.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #134,596
1/9/04 4:49:03 PM
|
Mooreover, C#, VB# and J# are all available from MS
for [link|http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=9b3a2ca6-3647-4070-9f41-a333c6b9181d&displaylang=en|free].
Plenty enough to develop - just add a text editor.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,798
12/30/03 1:58:57 PM
|
No
This is reasonable fear of the consequences of getting caught in single-vendor lock-in from an IT vendor who does not have a great quality reputation.
The vendor happens to be Microsoft, but the issue is not Microsoft-specific.
And before you point out that Mono is not Microsoft-specific, my reasonable fear is that if Mono ever gets too effective, Microsoft can pull the rug out from under it at any point with patent claims on all sorts of pieces to .NET that might have found their way into Mono. There is no reason for Microsoft not to have set this kind of safety plan up, and no evidence that they haven't. (They admit to having a lot of patents on .NET, which ones they don't care to list though.)
And when it comes to code, perhaps you forget that my current development environment is Perl? I work for an employer who not only lets me finish projects, but actively wants me to finish them so that I can move on to the next ones.
That comparison isn't Perl specific though. There are many productive environments out there. Furthermore with the right development environment and group you can be productive in any language. Including Java. To start with, you will ignore anything that gives you no bang for the buck...
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #134,698
1/10/04 9:00:05 AM
|
Noted. However, ...
And before you point out that Mono is not Microsoft-specific, my reasonable fear is that if Mono ever gets too effective, Microsoft can pull the rug out from under it at any point with patent claims on all sorts of pieces to .NET that might have found their way into Mono. I'm happily only going to be working with computers until the end of May, 2015. My reasonable assumption is that IIS will be unable to build a reputation as a "secure, stable, non-virus prone webserver" before it no longer matters to me (i.e. before the end of May 2015). Hence, it is in Microsoft's interest that Mono be as successful as it can be. Otherwise, .Net applications will only run on that part of the web market-share that runs IIS (never more than 30%). Another reasonable assumption of mine is that Microsoft doesn't want to be in any market where it has less than 1/3 the pie. So, while I accept your supposition that MSFT will ultimately find a way to kill Mono, I believe that MSFT will not be motivated to do such a thing until they can get enough people to trust IIS - which, as I say, I anticipate being sometime after May, 2015 :-)
bcnu, Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
|
Post #134,731
1/10/04 2:49:08 PM
|
Bad assumption in my books
You are projecting Microsoft's behaviour over a decade forward based on the current personality of the company today.
However the company's personality could easily change with different circumstances. Compare, for instance, the reputation of IBM today and 10 years ago. Therefore you should assume that Microsoft won't necessarily act according to any current strategic vision, but instead will act as normal economic principles dictate.
When it comes to profit maximization from a locked in and not growing market, standard advice for vendors is to raise switching costs as high as possible, and then slowly increase prices until people scream and switch. (Suggested reference on usual lock-in strategies, read Information Rules.) In that scenario, Microsoft has every reason to keep Mono from being a viable option.
They are likely to switch into this mode fairly shortly after they accept that they aren't going to grow the .NET market much more and .NET doesn't fit into any particular larger strategy. I would not be surprised to see them make this transition within a 5 year window.
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #134,746
1/10/04 4:20:47 PM
|
Microsoft's strategy has been consistent.
Their mission has always been to own every computing market they enter. Thinking that will somehow change over the next x years is a very bad assumption.
If Mono is successful, people will use .Net if only because of the legions of Visual Basic programmers out there. Yes, Microsoft made its money selling DOS and then Windows. But, the reason DOS and Windows *had* to be sold with every computer was/is the tools and applications written for that platform. They need .net to take off, (so much so that they are even providing a port for FreeBSD themselves). At this point getting more people to use .net is what the game is all about.
As big a fan of Linux as I am, it will not be until I am happily removed for IT work that Microsoft ever loses any significant amount of marketshare on the desktop. That alone will keep the Windows revenue rolling while they wait for .net to become a standard. And it will, like it or not. We all like to bash Microsoft, but the plain and simple truth is that they won the software dev tool and application market almost fair and square (Word was better than WordPerfect, Access better than Xbase, Excel better than Lotus, Visual Studio better - in the sense that it worked better with Windows - than anyone else's tools, etc.)
There will, of course, always be niches where Microsoft tools and Windows are not used, but as has always been the case, they will be the small exceptions.
bcnu, Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
|
Post #134,750
1/10/04 4:32:45 PM
|
Obviously we disagree
The strategy elements that I'm suggesting that Microsoft might use with .NET has lots of precedents. Not just with other vendors, but it is what Microsoft has done with core markets (eg office) once it hits market saturation.
Furthermore if Microsoft starts facing a sea change where they begin losing control of core markets (office, desktop) in a big way, then you are likely to see big shifts in their behaviour. The fact that this has never happened in the past isn't good proof that it will never happen in the future. In fact Open Office already is putting serious pricing pressure on them. If it starts taking significant market share, Microsoft is going to have to adapt or die. And adaptation means a lot of transitions.
One of those transitions is that they have to become more selective in choosing loss-leaders whose purpose is to drive people to buy into core markets. Will .NET make a more selective cut? I dunno, but it is a significant risk that I won't accept without good reason.
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #134,751
1/10/04 4:38:34 PM
|
Not that much.
emphasis mine ...it is what Microsoft has done with core markets (eg office) once it hits market saturation.
We disagree that .net will reach market saturation, or perhaps how long it will take until it does. But your statement above I could have written.
AFA OO - something else taking share from Microsoft Office, we absolutely disagree if your position is that it will take less than 11 years for that to happen.
I hope we still have a way to exchange views in 11 years. It'll be interesting to see who's right. :-)
bcnu, Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
|
Post #134,752
1/10/04 4:44:13 PM
|
Keep in touch - it may not be that long
OO already is putting pricing pressure on Microsoft. Given basic dynamics of disruptive innovation, I'd expect to see a recognizable sea-change under way in under 5 years. Of course the installed base will take a few more years to really erode, but...
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|