Post #132,597
12/29/03 9:37:39 AM
|
He might be an idiot,
but not for this particular pronouncement.
Not everyone with college degree/MCSE should be earning a 6-digit salary.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,599
12/29/03 9:44:44 AM
|
Sure won't help the job 'shortage' that forces 'offshoreing'
Reduce the payscale, reduce the numbers that will educate themselves in the field at all.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #132,601
12/29/03 9:49:50 AM
|
Neither does "managing" an illegal monopoly
But I don't hear him calling for a reduction of those salaries to, say $62,500 per year...
Besides being a fucking idiot, he's also a fucking hypocrite.
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #132,642
12/29/03 1:38:56 PM
|
Would you go to college
and major in a field knowing that, when you graduate, your salary would have a maximum ceiling? Me neither.
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume]
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume]
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
|
Post #132,656
12/29/03 2:47:32 PM
|
It depends
what about Teachers? They seem to have a low paying salary and take more classes than Computer Science graduates.
MCSE can be faked, some Internet sites sell the answers to the tests. I've known people with MCSE and MCSD degrees that knew less than I did.
Once the US Government offered grant money to US Citizens to take Computer Science and IT classes in college to compete with other countries, but somehow that program got messed up. A friend of mine has a mother who applied for it, but her college never turned in the paperwork for her. Or if they did, the government never replied back.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #132,668
12/29/03 4:22:27 PM
|
My salary has a ceiling:
somewhere around $150,000. After that, it's management.
In any case, two points:
1) salaries of computer people are hugely inflated. Only top .5 percent deserve anything like 6 figures (0.5% is off the wall, I admit).
2) People who would not go into computers if it weren't bringing as much money as it does should not go there in the first place. I do not know about IT, but programming is unforgiving to 9to5 people.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,674
12/29/03 5:23:12 PM
|
Re: 9-5; it applies to juat about everyone
In my experience, almost anything one does soley for money will not be done well and probably won't make the guy any significant amount of money anyway.
The only exception that I am aware of is those who set out only to make money and they don't care if they do inferior work or produce crap as long as the long green rolls in. BGates and Balmer would be examples.
For those of us who are not going to subvert their lives in favor of the almighty dollar, doing work you don't love will only lead to misery.
|
Post #132,677
12/29/03 5:45:58 PM
|
%-age is on the high side - glad we're both in it though ;-)
"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."
-- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
|
Post #132,690
12/29/03 8:24:21 PM
|
...and every kid is above average :)
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,737
12/30/03 8:41:21 AM
|
Re: 2).
While I concur that doing anything solely for the money leads to increased stress, depression, disillusionment and generally a less happy work life (not to be confused with one's real life), I find it almost comical that anyone would "go into computers" for anything other than money. If I weren't getting paid what I'm getting paid, I'd never piss away another nanosecond in front of one of these infernal things.
I work to live, not the other way around.
bcnu,
Mikem
I don't do third world languages. So no, I don't do Java.
|
Post #132,779
12/30/03 12:29:34 PM
|
I certainly sympathize with that attitude
I was never attracted to computers, even thought the post Sputnik school system hijacked me and railroaded me into science (which has left me very cynical about the education system).
I got involved with these infernal machines because I needed them to do things I wanted to do (writing and organizing). Unfortunately they were nowhere near ready for job back then, and trying to use them anyway led me into my current career. They still aren't ready for use, but at least they can do some of the jobs now.
I do intend to escape from this insanity, if only the computers would leave me enough time to do so - but that won't take me completely from the screen and keyboard, because I will still need them for what I originally got involved with them for.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
|
Post #132,782
12/30/03 12:41:42 PM
|
I can only offer my condolences.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,808
12/30/03 2:28:23 PM
|
Ditto, from here.
Alex
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty. -- Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), US president
|
Post #132,809
12/30/03 2:28:27 PM
|
If you disagree with MikeM's thesis, then it seems...
...to me that it's YOU, not he, who should be offered condoleances.
I hereby offer you mine.
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
|
Post #132,811
12/30/03 2:32:59 PM
|
I don't have to do someting I hate every day
to earn a living. In fact, I started doing it for free, the fact that I get paid is a fortuitous coincidence. Do _you_ hate your job?
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,815
12/30/03 2:49:12 PM
|
I used to love programming
It would be impossibly frustrating to have to put up with these idiotic idioms every day. If one could get a job doing something interesting like Smalltalk or FORTH, then I would have a job I loved. If I had to do Java or similar every day, I would hate my job. The more you love programming, the more likely you'll end up hating a programming job.
-drl
|
Post #133,002
12/31/03 12:58:45 PM
12/31/03 1:00:46 PM
|
Me too
But I think in retrospect I should have stayed in the music biz.
I'm a fair to middlin recording engineer, song writer, producer, guitarist, and gadget/synth programmer. Had I dedicated all my efforts to it (and moved to LA to work on breaking into the recording scene) I suspect I might have penetrated to some level of self sufficiency by now. I have found that the power source to write software and to create music is the same. I can't do both at the same time.
Foolishly, I studied engineering thinking that engineers designed things and that engineering was a creative endeavor at some level. Imagine my dismay when I found that so much of it was following handbooks and recipes. I need creative outlets.
Now I do software for money. I don't much care for it as the creativity has been "engineered" out of it. At the place I am now I doubt I'll write 50 lines of code this year. Its all process process process and everything is locked down.
"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."
-- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
|
Post #133,008
12/31/03 1:08:57 PM
|
Start a business!
I'll work for you for dirt cheap and hope. I had no idea you were so into music. I want to write a music editor that can apply performance styles to ranges of bars (sort of like a texture). This is a big problem. All the music software I've seen is rudimentary.
-drl
|
Post #133,033
12/31/03 3:32:46 PM
|
Re: Start a business!
Gimme a call, too! I'll help!
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #133,039
12/31/03 4:07:31 PM
|
I love what I do
I just hate the people I work with because of their behaviors and attitudes. Get me a company with honest, good natured, and kind and gentle people and I'll develop almost anything for them.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #133,047
12/31/03 4:42:02 PM
|
Re: I love what I do
In other words, when I find a place where everyone will accept and cowtow to my orientation, I will be so kind as to grace them with my efforts.
No better statement of yours could sum up my appraisal of your narcissism. Flame away!
-drl
|
Post #133,049
12/31/03 5:27:23 PM
12/31/03 5:34:01 PM
|
Not what I said at all
let me give you an example. At college, people are nicer to me than at the places I used to work at. They accept my weaknesses and are willing to work around them and help me improve to try and get rid of them. They also value my strengths and complement them with their own strengths. I also help them overcome their weaknesses. The sum of the team is greater than the people by themselves. This is in contrast to a workplace full of people who only think of themselves, and sabotage others so they can look better and get a promotion over the others. Want to know what the true difference is? Money, there is no finacial reward for doing good work in college, like there is for work. There is only grades. We work in teams and get graded as a team, so everyone does their best to help each other out so we all can get a better grade. There is also personal papers, quizes, and final exams, so we work alone on that, and work on other things as a team.
It has nothing to do with narcissism, it has everything to do with people accepting me for what and who I am and working with me instead of against me. Win one for the team, for the company, rather that for themselves.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
Edited by orion
Dec. 31, 2003, 05:34:01 PM EST
|
Post #133,051
12/31/03 6:22:37 PM
|
An old lesson
What annoys us most in others is what annoys us most in ourselves.
Do you think that you can walk into a work environment and trust that being pleasant and supportive of others is worthwhile in and of itself? My experience is that if you can manage the trick, people that you would like to work with will tend to notice and react likewise. By contrast if you become competitive with others, any potential support network will melt away before coming into existence.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
|
Post #133,052
12/31/03 6:41:31 PM
|
This is true
in my past workplaces I have trained other programmers, even shared tricks I learned to make programs better. While not all of the other coworkers were competitive, the ones that actually helped me out would eventually end up leaving the firm because of the actions of the competitive ones. Eventually we ended up with a very competitive group of programmers, and management wanted it that way. I can not thrive in such an environment and will get overstressed.
I see competitiveness as being non-productive to the goals and mission statement of the orgnaization. Many followed "The Price" by Machiavelli [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553212788/103-6513564-3250217?v=glance|http://www.amazon.co...-3250217?v=glance] and followed everything it said to succeed at an organization.
I would rather work in a group who reads "Stewardship" [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1881052869/103-6513564-3250217?v=glance|http://www.amazon.co...-3250217?v=glance] and understand the importance of teams and working with each other instead of against each other. Also emloyees need to be empowered and the wealth needs to be shared.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #133,055
12/31/03 6:50:16 PM
|
Hmmm.
in my past workplaces I have trained other programmers Eventually we ended up with a very competitive group of programmers Sorta jumps out at ya, doesn't it. -----------------------------------------
"After months of searching and billions of dollars,
we've finally captured the man who had absolutely nothing to do with 9-11 !"
-Rob Cordry, The Daily Show
|
Post #133,060
12/31/03 7:39:38 PM
|
Taken out of context
I only trained them on programming skills, not on how to deal with other people. I shared my knowledge of programming, the rest was up to them. Maybe it was my fault that I didn't train them to work as team players?
I did not teach them how to be competitive, I taught them how to work better with the languages involved.
There were programmers that worked with me, I felt I could accomplish anything with them. It was like a team, we integrated our programs to work with each other. We both benefited from each other. Those were the salad days before management encourged others to be competitive and ruined things.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
|
Post #133,112
1/1/04 4:44:51 AM
|
See??? - You___Aren't___Crazy__[.]
- - - merely (and sadly, often lugubriously) disappointed.
Having come from a different milieu, I can say -
I understand that. The trick is to not take the failings of dozens (or even millions) personally. It is your past and current folly: to do exactly that. Ross is correct, even if his style grates on you (since you perceive the New idea as Hostile: and it is! .. but only to your faux-'personality').
Yes, it seems... "reasonable" (that people *ought* to behave in this way) - but only via the silly standards of Right/Wrong you were taught as a child. If you cannot reinvent 'yourself': No One can do this for you, for reasons so basic as to be inexpressible. If you wish sincerely to reach adulthood some day:
Believe NOTHING of what you have been taught! Yes: NOTHING.
It is all.. conventional euphemism (the deeply ingrained habit of the society you find yourself surrounded-by!), a mindset passed on by the fearful ---> so as to create supportive New fearful-ones. "Treating fear" has recently become, even - an entire fre$h Pharm-chem Industry!
(Fact: There_really_is_Nothing_to be_afraid_of.)
Fear itself (except in certain necessarily visceral situations re physical survival == walking along the edge of a cliff, say) is always a symptom of not yet knowing What you are, never mind 'who'. Word, that...
All the rest is fake emotional fear. And the Larger-trick is to finally realize that, *all* emotional-fear is internally imagined, then reinforced by the prevailing bafflegab we call psychology; lately reinforced by a plethora of Designer Drugs, modelled upon the fictional Soma of Brave New World -- and overtly advertised! on that same Tee Vee:
even for those who experience er "shyness at parties", and the like: you can now bugger your 'doctor' to prescribe a brilliant New Drug, to go with your present soup. Just watch your Tee Vee Ads: you will see. Don't believe anything someone just "says"! (including me)
ie
Yes, you are quite Correct: a culture which emphasized cooperation would *indeed be* a vastly more mature one than the present callow, juvenile one we both sort-of inhabit. I confirm your observation FWIW (not much) - you have to discriminate All By Yourself. And that is something you have, thus far - little experience in relying upon - the trusting of your own perceptions.
Maturity will arrive: when you see the same contradictions, wish it were 'different' {sigh} -- yet also see "the world" as: working Exactly as "a world of duality In All Things": Would/Should DOES 'Work' !!
It could not be any different than the Way It Is. <<<
No. Don't reply: not until you have tried-out ditching much of the habit-baggage you carry with you in all situations (and actually Like..) and - have something New to say.
As in: later.
And if none of this makes the slightest sense to you - leave it for what you call the unconscious to either sort out, or dismiss. That's something I can't 'do' for you (either). If there's a third option, it is: never mind.
Luck.
PS - don't even think about 'links'
|
Post #132,876
12/30/03 7:07:42 PM
|
Computers mimic reality
...so whatever you enjoy, there's probably a 'virtual equivalent'. I enjoy design in almost any form; computers are a vehicle for that, never a goal.
I was one of the original authors of VB, and *I* wouldn't use VB for a text
processing program. :-) Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
|
Post #132,940
12/31/03 8:51:11 AM
|
I guess you're right
Computers just make things easier. I dabbled with electronics and chemistry before I discovered computers - same idea, but imperfect tools.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,829
12/30/03 3:29:15 PM
|
so the other 99.5%
deserve to NEVER make more than $50,000 USD? Well, then, let's roll back the taxes, cost of automobiles, housing, food, utilities, etc. so that $50,000 is a very good middle class annual income. Make everything proportionate, okay?
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume]
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume]
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
|
Post #132,853
12/30/03 4:49:19 PM
|
Who says that 99.5% are entitled
to "good middle class income"?
Can you say "white-collar janitor"? I knew you could.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #132,971
12/31/03 11:15:57 AM
|
Everyone is entitled
to have the OPPORTUNITY to better their salary, no matter what field they work in. For some fields, $50K a year would be very good; for others, $50K is entry level. In the suburbs of Chicago in the mid 1990s, there was a school district where the median salary of the high school teachers was $64,000. Can you say "we're willing to pay what we believe someone is worth"? I know you can.
Tell me, why do you want to put a hard ceiling on a person's annual salary in a specific field - yout trying to get more PHBs to outsource jobs to Asia and Eastern Europe?
lincoln
"Windows XP has so many holes in its security that any reasonable user will conclude it was designed by the same German officer who created the prison compound in "Hogan's Heroes." - Andy Ihnatko, Chicago Sun-Times
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/resume.htm|VB/SQL resume]
[link|http://users3.ev1.net/~bconnors/tandem_resume.htm|Tandem resume]
[link|mailto:bconnors@ev1.net|contact me]
|
Post #132,995
12/31/03 12:25:34 PM
|
Why do you keep talking about hard ceiling?
For all we know, Balmer meant "average" or "prevailing". I, for sure, never proposed a "hard ceiling"
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
|
Post #133,106
1/1/04 2:40:58 AM
|
My salary also has a ceiling: $35K :)
|
Post #133,108
1/1/04 3:02:30 AM
|
My salary ceiling was featured in "Twister"
-drl
|
