Post #128,467
12/2/03 10:27:18 AM
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Guardian: Civil war in the "anti-war" camp
[link|http://www.guardian.co.uk/antiwar/story/0,12809,1096872,00.html|I'm shocked... shocked! ...to find the Left has taken over!]
Excerpt:
The peace movement could be destroyed by the takeover of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and the Stop the War coalition by Trotskyist groups and the Communist party, according to allegations circulated by a leading campaigner.
The claims have been made by Jimmy Barnes, the veteran leftwing secretary of the trade union CND movement. He has warned in a paper sent to the campaign's national council and the trade union CND executive that "CND itself is now a small divided group with little future, unless there is a change".
It has been well known that the anti-war groups have always been heavily influenced by the far left, but the internal divisions have reached a startling degree of animosity.
Mr Barnes claims that the last CND annual conference saw a bitter fight for the chairmanship, ending with officer positions being captured by the Communist party and Socialist Action faction. He adds that the way CND was taken over in the autumn will "lead to a long-running faction struggle which could neutralise, or possibly destroy the peace movement at a time when it is most needed".
His stance was condemned as "divisive and destructive" by the current chairwoman, Kate Hudson, who last night dismissed any suggestion that the organisation had been taken over by a cabal of like-minded political campaigners as "ridiculous".
---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. "If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11. "I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #128,517
12/2/03 6:05:14 PM
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so the neoconns are taking over the anti war movement
from the presidency to the bit players of the fringe left the neoconns plan their hegemony. Dam little difference between Rove et al and Kate Hudson. thanx, bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #128,557
12/2/03 9:49:14 PM
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Please don't feed the ... Huh?
As much as I hate giving the philbot any recognition, what the hell did you just say?
----------------------------------------- Democracy is not a spectator sport.
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Post #128,580
12/3/03 8:33:37 AM
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:-)
The gist of the article explains how the trotskyites and communists are taking over parts of the antiwar movement. Now it is a well known fact that Rove, Perleman, Wolfowitz are so called reformed communists and that they run the whitehouse policies. Interestly they use the same tactics and want the same end, domination, that the communists want. What is amusing is that Phil think the article paints the antiwar movement with a bad brush, the fun part is he is what they used to call in the old days, a useful idiot for the neo-conns who are themselves as communist as Beria. As for not feeding the troll, he amuses me at times. thanx, bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #128,587
12/3/03 9:28:55 AM
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Thanks for explaining
----------------------------------------- Democracy is not a spectator sport.
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Post #128,853
12/4/03 10:03:20 AM
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Does this involve space aliens at any point?
I've often thought people were kidding, only to find out later that they were sincerely paranoid. That's why I don't often give the benefit of the doubt anymore. Nothing personal, I assure you.
Come to think of it, James Carville looks like a human-alien hybrid. And Michael Moore looks like an alien planet. With stubbly vegetation, and large deposits of hydrogenated fats.
---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. "So what?" - lincoln, on the murder of tens of thousands of innocents. "If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11. "I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #128,866
12/4/03 10:39:07 AM
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very good, almost useful but your denial of NECON roots
doesnt change the facts. Although you being a fact man you might look at the evidence. the following article is well written and annotated for your disbelieving pleasure. [link|http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j061303.html|http://www.antiwar.c...stin/j061303.html] But when he writes how "many of the original generation of neoconservatives had a background of association with Trotskyism in its Shachtmanite iteration" it's somehow not a hate crime. Schwartz is even allowed to observe, as I did in my 1993 book Reclaiming the American Right in some detail, that "the Shachtmanites, in the 1960s, joined the AFL-CIO in its best Cold War period, and many became staunch Reaganites." The point of Schwartz's rebuttal, however, is that he is proud of his Trotksyist past. He even gathers his co-thinkers together in proclaiming, in true Trotskyist fashion, that they constitute a semi-official faction, which some editor at NRO deemed "Trotsky-cons": "The second issue at hand involves the actual ex-Trotskyists who engaged with the issue of the Iraqi war. I call this group, to which I belong, the 'three-and-a-half international,' which is an obscure reference I won't explain fully. But I use it to indicate three main individuals: Christopher Hitchens, myself, and the Iraqi intellectual Kanan Makiya, who all did indeed march under the Red Flag at some point\ufffd." so leading figures in the international policy decision making in Washington D.C. are all "ex" commies. Now although "ex"commies they exhibit and forward the very communist attitude of state first, security over freedom and the spoils belong to the apparatchiks. How does that duck phrase go again? quack, rebut at length or perhaps learn something. dont forget to link, thanx, bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #130,034
12/10/03 11:51:02 AM
12/10/03 11:55:26 AM
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"Security over freedom" is Communist?
I don't recall that the hard Left ever cared much for either as such.
As for the rest, it's hardly distinctive. You may as well argue that Dubya is a commie because he has two eyes and one nose, just like Stalin. There's not an interest group in the world that doesn't want to run the whole shebang.
I'm the last person to unconditionally trust the government. I trust the government because - and when - I see no better alternative. But that trust is never unconditional
But I don't trust the mob, either. The problem with a mob is that the mob is only as good and smart as the worst of its constituent members. People don't think for themselves when they're in a mob. That's how they become part of the mob in the first place. [link|http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2003/03/Initiationceremonies.shtml|The mob is stupid]. the mob is not the people. The people are (note the plural) a collection of individuals. A mob is the death of individuality.
Like any sensible person, I believe in checks and balances. Neither the government nor the mob should be in complete control. Not big business, either, or any other special interest. Liberty under law. The way it works is, you have a system of laws that tend to enforce themselves automatically, by the action of human nature. Everyone's keeping an eye on everyone else, looking out for himself, plus a few decent folk looking out for the law as such. It doesn't hurt to have individuals with altrustic motives in such an arrangement, but the arrangement can cope with the unpleasant fact that most humans are selfish and shortsighted. It's robust that way.
In the American system, every legitimate interest has a share of power and the means to protect it. The Constitution channels all this self-protecting activity into a big mutual feedback system, that prevents any one interest from getting out of control. The balance of power will fluctuate, and that's healthy. It stays within parameters. Parameters broad enough to guard against societal stagnation. You get the power you earn, but only up to a point. No one can afford to be complacent, and no one can hope to grab it all.
That's how a democratic republic works. We don't just put high-minded but meaningless language in the "law" and leave it at that, like the Soviet Union did. We have a living, active, self-regulating system. It's a living document, but not in the squishy-left sense. It's living because it's alive. It maintains equilibrium. (Granted, the constituent special interest groups may not perceive the equilibrium as such. It's a big picture thing.) It responds to [link|http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/chronology.attack/|stimuli]. And when healthy, it seeks to reproduce. More on that below.
This all makes it hard to get away with bad stuff. It's [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/lj36.html|not quite bulletproof], but it works better than anything anyone else has come up with. We may have [link|http://www.zpub.com/un/un-jr.html|crap like this], but at least we don't have [link|http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,6539723%5E25777,00.html|crap like this].
"The worst system of government except for all the others" a great man once said. I say let's spread our style of democratic republic throughout the globe, so everyone can enjoy a better grade of crap.
Oh, and how often do democracies go to war against each other? Not often, as far as I can tell. Why, we haven't even nuked France, and they sure hell have been asking for it for years now. Now that's self restraint. Seems to me that if anyone sincerely wants world peace, he should drop the stupid WWP signs with the stupid slogans and start supporting the spread of democracy, by the forceful removal of tyrants.
[Let me qualify this. It's virtually unheard of for democracies to have shooting wars with each other. But, as France has demonstrated, they may resort to war by other means, turning Clausewitz on his head. Still, it's an improvement. When no Saddams are left, this sort of thing will be rendered relatively harmless.]
Saddam started wars all over the place. To support Saddam is to support endless bloody wars. That's what he was about. And he's just an example. There are still plenty left like him. Get rid of as many of them as we can, and the world will be a safer place.
---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. "If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11. "I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Edited by marlowe
Dec. 10, 2003, 11:55:26 AM EST
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Post #130,312
12/11/03 12:27:12 PM
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Saddam started wars all over the place? What you smoking?
Kuwait was/is a babylonian province for about the last 6 thousand years until 1945 or so. Saddam was entitled to require Kuwait to return. He invaded Iran at the request of the United States. Those were the only two wars he started.
Yes, security over freedom is certainly communist. Stat Uber Alles This system is good with checks, balances and a constitution with the bill of rights. However the executive arm of the federal government of this administration is declaring the bill of rights to be void because of terrorism, then readily admits to using these usurpations to attack non terrorist targets . The current administration is attempting to turn our constitution into meaningless pap just like the one the USSR had. Every step is to make the state, not the individual formost and selling the federal estate's powers to the highest bidder. Just like Brechnev's apparatchiks did in the seventies. The people in charge of this Rove, Wolfowitz etc do not deny that they were communists at one time. I simply assert that the past tense doesnt apply as their actions speak loudly as to their aims. The tenets of the Communist International are what they are bringing into being here in america. thanx, bill
"We must face the fact that there is not a single country in the world that measures up to the lofty moral and social standards that are the hallmark of the U.S.A.: even Canada is delinquent and deserves a whiff of grape. There is not a single country in the world which, like the U.S., reeks of democracy and "human rights," and is free of crime and murder and hate thoughts and undemocratic deeds\ufffd. And so, since no other countries shape up to U.S. standards, \ufffd I make a Modest Proposal for the only possible consistent and coherent foreign policy: the U.S. must, very soon, Invade the Entire World!" Murray N. Rothbard
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #130,466
12/12/03 11:37:08 AM
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You channeling Noam Chomsky?
Don't you think you're perhaps distorting the picture a wee bit?
What's Babylonian province got to do with anything? And what of the Kurds and swamp Arabs? They don't count?
Hey, I was a peacenik once, a very long time ago. And even now, I advocate world peace - by the means of universal republican democracy, with American hegemony as a means toward that. So does that make me a smelly sandal-wearing hippie? Would I like to buy the world a Coke? Take the treacle and the saccharine out of humanist idealism, add some common sense, and I'm what you get.
First, try beathing into a paper bag. And then go through your list of grievances against the current administration, one by one. Cross off every one where the evidence is... shall we say... open to interpretation. Then cross off every one where previous adminstrations of the other party have attempted the same, or worse. Let me know if there's anything left.
And then let me know if anyone ever got away with any items on your list. Only Lincoln and FDR even came close to turning our Constitution into meaningless pap. They both had emergencies to deal with. The emergencies ended, and the Constitution survived.
There is absolutely nothing novel about anything you're hyperventilating over. It happens all the time. Constantly. Always has, always will, under either party. And our democracy survives. The pendulum of power swings, but it never breaks loose from the fulcrum. The system works. It defends itself.
Get a grip, man. You're sounding like a PKD novel. Ferris Fremont is a Red! ([link|http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/dialogue/hayward.html|And he was, sort of. But in the end it didn't much matter.])
---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. "If I may be candid for a moment, and let's see you try to stop me..." - Jay Conrad Levinson Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11. "I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #130,542
12/13/03 1:24:30 AM
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Asshat
Filbert is hungry. Starve it.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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