Saddam was a democracy?

Post #125,823 by Simon_Jester 11/15/03 12:00:40 PM Reply	Saddam was a democracy? 2) Democracy dictates that any established and 'legally' binding contracts such as oil expl & devel mut be adhered to. Is bunk. Otherwise the oil contracts would belong, already, to the Russians and French. Because, I believe you'll find that the legal argument that they'll use is that Iraq fell into a anarchy period where all contract made with the established government of Iraq prior to the war are null and void. Only contracts formed after the interm govenment has been established will have the enforced with the rule of law. (In other words, we'll shoot anyone who tries to take our^h^h^hIraqi oil.) Actually #1 is bunk - there is no way we're going to give them democracy (so that they can vote a religious dictatorship) - they'll be forced to take our intern-govenment appointees for a few (dozen) years or so. (BTW: one reason why we are going through all this mularchy is that according to the Genevia Convention we're not allowed to simply walk into Iraq and just take their oil. I'm not sure why the GC would stop us though - it's not stopped us in the past.) (BTW: are you sure it's the Russians and the French - or is it the Russian and French branches of multi-national corporations?)
Post #125,825 by bepatient 11/15/03 12:28:32 PM Reply	Yes I'm sure Oh...the french one is definitely an MNC...owned by the french. They're #4, totally. And the russian contract was signed by the government. Together they were to develop the huge northern fields...arguably the largest field outside of Saudi. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #125,863 by dmarker 11/15/03 8:52:57 PM Reply	Re your 'bunk' Can you add any details of Iraq oil contracts and or details of authorative estimates of untapped Iraqi reserves and perhaps who currently holds rights to explore & tap the 'reserves'. If you can I might give some creedance to your 'bunk' comment. Cheers Doug
Post #125,869 by Simon_Jester 11/15/03 10:08:57 PM Reply	Not sure what #4 is... Oh...the french one is definitely an MNC...owned by the french. Well, the company that I know of that was having trouble with Iraq was Elf && TotalFina (they have merged since their troubles began). You can argue that they owned by the French - but it's a bit like saying that Ford is owned by the USA. ([link\|http://www.total.com/ho/en/index.htm\|Total] - TotalFina/Elf is traded on the NYSE) Oh, and look... Iraq will review oil contracts signed with France and Germany because they haven't donated money for Iraq's reconstruction, Iraq's oil minister was quoted as saying Sunday. "Iraq will review contracts signed with countries that haven't offered aid to the people of Iraq and aren't planning to do so in the future, such as France and Germany," Dubai-based al-Arabiya satellite television quoted Ibrahim Bahr al-Uloum as saying. Oil analysts in the Iraqi capital say the minister's statement also means that Baghdad won't sign contracts with companies from these two countries to reconstruct the battered Iraqi oil sector. Bahr al-Uloum said Iraq's budget for next year had allocated $1 billion to be invested in the oil sector. He said $50 billion was needed to increase Iraq's oil production to 5 million barrels per day, the target for 2010. [link\|http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=9361\|RIGZONE]
Post #125,875 by dmarker 11/15/03 11:03:20 PM Reply	To be fair to him ... he leapt headfirst in on the topic of past contracts which was not really the thrust of my original point. But the material you link to illustrates the issue of the 'democratic' govt of Iraq deciding who does & doesn't get both past & future contracts let alone what happens re tapping the currently untapped & unmapped reserves. Cheers Doug
Post #125,923 by bepatient 11/16/03 4:53:01 PM Reply	I jumped on... ...the characterization that the "democratic" thing to do is >re-contract< for the oil rights. The US, as a democracy, (if your statement were correct) would be forced to honor the contracts already in place with Russia and France. If you want exact figures...I could pull out the annual report of my company...mais ce n'est pas necessaire, je pense. And we're back to discussing oil rights that have no bearing on US sources of supply. So I guess we've done a great favor to Japan, Russia and the EU. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #125,927 by dmarker 11/16/03 6:25:12 PM 11/17/03 3:03:17 AM Reply	Check these links ... Google ... Iraq oil contracts Chalabi Iraq Here are a few links that paint an interesting picture - they are pretty much reflective of a consistent picture & pattern. The themes are consistent even though the sources are wide & varied Cheers - Doug TRAINING for IRAQ Liberation [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2905881.stm\|http://news.bbc.co.u...urope/2905881.stm] training for 'democratic' govt of Iraq [link\|http://www.sundayherald.com/30420\|http://www.sundayherald.com/30420] more about Rumsfeld's pre-Iraq war European activities Ahmad CHALABI's questionable role [link\|http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-contracts7nov07000440,0,5676525.story?coll=la-headlines-world\|http://www.latimes.c...a-headlines-world] Chalabi's pay-offs [link\|http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2003/msg01943.html\|http://www.casi.org....003/msg01943.html] Unflattering comments about Wolfy's Iraqi friend [link\|http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/09/24/sprj.irq.bush.chalabi/\|http://edition.cnn.c...irq.bush.chalabi/] Unflattering CNN comments "The U.S. military even airlifted him into Iraq after the war. Now he seems out of step with Washington." [link\|http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/iraq/20030923-0743-iraq-un-seat.html\|http://www.signonsan...iraq-un-seat.html] 'democratic' Chalabi takes Iraq's UN seat [link\|http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ahmed_Chalabi\|http://www.disinfope...tle=Ahmed_Chalabi] Various US opinions on Chalabi 'If Chalabi is the guy, there could be a civil war after Saddam's overthrow,' one former C.I.A. operative told me. A former high-level Pentagon official added, 'There are some things that a President can't order up, and an internal opposition is one.'"[4] [link\|http://www.islamonline.net/english/In_Depth/Iraq_Aftermath/2003/05/article_32.shtml\|http://www.islamonli.../article_32.shtml] An Arab view of Chalabi [link\|http://www.themoscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/09/24/201.html\|http://www.themoscow...03/09/24/201.html] point here is that unless Chalabi 'tows the US line' as per the Rumsfeld Iraq script, he will run foul of Washington. [link\|http://slate.msn.com/id/2083736/\|http://slate.msn.com/id/2083736/] Chalabi as main source for WMD claims (Repubs testing if Chalabi can be 'fitted up') OIL and OIL CONTRACTS [link\|http://fpeng.peopledaily.com.cn/200008/09/eng20000809_47788.html\|http://fpeng.peopled...000809_47788.html] Pre war - Iraq attacks US Britain for blocking oil contracts [link\|http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/04/16042003161849.asp\|http://www.rferl.org...6042003161849.asp] Point here is that Russia lost its biggest contracts and won't get them back unless it accepts US controlled 'democratization' of Iraq [link\|http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,805530,00.html\|http://observer.guar...03,805530,00.html] UK Guardian on US oil grab [link\|http://abcnews.go.com/sections/business/Nightline/NTL_oil_iraq_021004.html\|http://abcnews.go.co..._iraq_021004.html] Spoils of war [link\|http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html\|http://www.eia.doe.g...eu/cabs/iraq.html] Info on Iraq oil reserves [link\|http://www.mail-archive.com/airheads-chat@micapeak.com/msg02636.html\|http://www.mail-arch...com/msg02636.html] Interesting claim that Iraq's oil reserves are not what everyone thinks !!! [link\|http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2003/0305oil.html\|http://www.fpif.org/...2003/0305oil.html] Interesting opinions on oil issue "Its the oil stupid" Washington will seek United Nations Security Council resolutions lifting the economic sanctions in order to allow sales of Iraqi oil. But administration officials vow to exclude the UN from decisionmaking on the disposition of Iraqi oil assets. BUT MOST TELLING (in support of the case I made) ... According to the Energy Department, these undeveloped fields may hold as much as 200 billion barrels of oil, making this the largest pool of unexploited petroleum in the world. Saddam had awarded contracts to firms in Russia, China, and France to develop some of these fields, but any government installed by the United States--certainly one headed by Chalabi--would declare those contracts void. #1 - tidied up dup links #2 - fixed mixed up link re CNN Edited by dmarker Nov. 16, 2003, 06:29:49 PM EST Edited by dmarker Nov. 17, 2003, 12:52:12 AM EST Edited by dmarker Nov. 17, 2003, 03:03:17 AM EST Expand All History

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