Re: Have to admit that was my recollection

Post #12,548 by dmarker2 10/9/01 9:45:57 PM Reply	Re: Have to admit that was my recollection I had it in the back of my head that the Sunnis were the peacful ones & the Shi'ite the aggressive but several recent items I read said the opposite. What I do understand is that one branch followed Mohammad's son and another faction followed a group of his leading disciples. I think that the followers of his son ambushed some of the key memebers of the other group & killed them & this faction is the one that each year commemorates the murders by staging an unusual parade. I may have this back-to-front butthink it is right. The offended faction are the aggressive ones - I thought they were the Shi'ite. But it seems to contradict the point I made that OBL said killing Shi'ites is ok. In some countries, the people of this sect bare them selves to their waists, a mullah uses a wooden dowel & dagger (places the dowel on their head, taps their head with the blade of the dagger using the dowel to stop the blade causing serious injury) then they march slapping their hands against their heads thus spreading blood everywhere & chant items recalling the 'matrydom' of their sect founders. I understand the stench of the blood creates a kind of blood frenzy - certainly distresses westeners who get the chance to see the ritual. When we see Muslims banging both hands against their heads at times of distress, I believe this to be a kind of replay of the anuual more bloody actions.
Post #12,549 by dmarker2 10/9/01 10:15:35 PM Reply	QAD research on differences between Shia & Sunni Did some QAD research. A bit confusing but it may help. Doug Marker The Shia follow what is known as Ahlul-Bayt which is a chosen group of Mohammads relatives (I think it was actually a key disciple called Ali, one of Mahommad's important disciples who was murdered ?). The Sunni follow the teachings (Sunnah) of Mohammad. This would mean that it was Sunni followers who did the ambush & murder of the leaders of the group who call them selves Shi'ites. ************************ [link\|http://home.swipnet.se/islam/shia-origin.htm\|Origins of the Shia] If you refer to the famous dictionaries "an-Nihayah" and "Lisan ul-'Arab", you will find the meaning of "shi'a" as "one who loves and follows 'Ali (a.s.) and his descendants." ('Ali ibn Abi Talib'). The following traditions may be cited as examples. "'Ali (a.s.) bears the same relationship to me as Harun (Aaron) had to Musa (Moses)". "Oh 'Ali, only those with faith (iman) are your friends, and only the hypocrites (munafiqin) are your enemies." "Oh people of my ummah. I leave behind two things worthy of great esteem - the Book of God and my progeny, my Ahlu 'l-bayt." "According to the tradition of at-Tayr, the prophet made the following prayer: "Oh God. Send to me your most beloved slave", and immediately Ali entered his presence. "Tomorrow I will give this standard to the man who loves God and His Prophet (s.a.w.) and whom God and His Prophet (s.a.w.) also love." "'Ali is with the Truth and the Truth is with 'Ali." *********************************** [link\|http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1a/12.html\|below is extracted from this link - a Muslim ref site] (this item highlights the basis of the religious dispute between Shia and Sunni) Based on a parallel (Mutawatir) tradition upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Messenger of Allah (AS) informed his followers in several occasions that he would leave them two precious/weighty things and that if Muslims adhere to both of them, they will never go astray after him. They are the Book of Allah (Quran) and the Members of the House of the Prophet (Ahlul-Bayt), peace be upon them all. (this expands on the difference) A contributor claimed that there exists a tradition narrated by both Shia and Sunni which reads: "al-Salmanu minna Ahlal-Bayt" and translates to: "Salman (al-Farsi) is one of us, Ahlul-Bayt". This contradicts the Shi'ite doctrine that Ahlul-Bayt are some selected individuals from the progeny of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). (here is more fine detail) According to most authentic traditions in collections of both Sunni and Shia, Ahlul-Bayt (People of the House) of the Prophet are one of the two most precious Symbols of Islam after the departure of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). There are numerous traditions in the collection of both schools that the Prophet (PBUH&HF) has reminded us to stick to these two weighty things (al-Thaqalain), namely Quran and Ahlul-Bayt, in order not to go astray after him. The Messenger of Allah also informed us that these two weights are non-separable and are with each other till the day of Judgment. This requires us that for understanding the interpretation of Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) we should refer to those who are attached to it, namely Ahlul-Bayt. Knowing exactly who Ahlul-Bayt are, thus becomes a very vital matter when one considers the above tradition of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) as well as many other traditions which unequivocally state that adherence to Ahlul-Bayt is the only way of salvation. This clearly implies that the one who follows a wrong set of Ahlul-Bayt (!!), will be led astray. Considering the critical importance of the subject, it will not be surprising to see that the Shia differ from some Sunnis in this subject. In fact, the Sunnis do not have one voice in specifying the Members of the House the Prophet. Most Sunnis are in the opinion that the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) are: Fatimah al-Zahra (AS) (the daughter of the Messenger of Allah), Imam Ali (AS), Imam al-Hasan (AS), Imam al-Husain (AS), Wives of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) Others among the Sunnis further include ALL the descendants of the Prophet to the list! Some other Sunnis are very generous and include all the descendants of Abbas (the Abbasid) as well as the descendants of Aqil & Ja'far (the two brothers of Imam Ali) to the list. It should be noted, however, that there have been some leading Sunni scholars who did NOT consider the wives of the Prophet among Ahlul-Bayt. This happens to be consistent with the Shia point of view. To the Shia, the Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) consist of the following individuals ONLY: Fatimah al-Zahra (AS), Imam Ali (AS), Imam al-Hasan (AS), Imam al-Husain (AS), Nine descendants of Imam al-Husain (AS). and including the Prophet (PBUH&HF) himself, they will become fourteen individuals. Of course, at the time of the Holy Prophet only five of them (including the Prophet) were living and the rest were not born yet. The Shia further assert that these fourteen individuals are protected by Allah from any kind of flaws, and thus worthy of being obeyed beside Quran (the other Weighty Symbol), and they are the only people who have the full knowledge of the interpretation of the Quranic verses. In this discussion, we would like to explain why the Shia exclude the wives of the Prophet from Ahlul-Bayt, and also we will briefly discuss why Ahlul-Bayt are protected/infallible. (More detailed discussion on the infallibility is provided in Chapter 2). We base our proofs on: 1. Quran, 2. Traditions from the authentic Sunni Collections, 3. Historical events.
Post #12,552 by dmarker2 10/9/01 10:26:54 PM Reply	Re: Aha - the murk clears (just a bit) [link\|http://home.swipnet.se/islam/shia-origin.htm\|Accusations against the Shia] The above link chronicles a series of attacks & murders of Shia Muslims by the mainline Sunni sect. Below is an extract & includes a bit about the famous 'martys' that might be the basis for the ritual I mentioned earlier (am still a bit unclear on it all) Doug Marker ********************************* There are of course rules for taqiyah. They are three: 1) if life will be lost for no purpose, then it is an obligation; 2) if expressing the truth would serve some useful purpose, then it is optional; 3) if atheism (kufr) is gaining the upper hand, people are being led astray, and their is danger of cruelty and oppression, then taqiyah is forbidden. Now let us throw some light onto the matter so that a conscientious person may make up his own mind as to whether the Shi'a are actually guilty of taqiyah (supposing that it is condemnable), or whether they were forced to do taqiyah by certain groups who took away their freedom and forced them to dissimulate their beliefs. As soon as Mu'awiyyah took over power, he made the shari'ah into a plaything and victimized the Shi'as of 'Ali (a.s.) with unconcealed savagery. The blood of the Shi'as was cheaper to him than water. The Marwanid caliphs also followed the same iniquitous policy. Then came the 'Abbasid period, and they even increased the atrocities. Consequently, those who loved the ahl ulbayt (a.s.) had to adopt various tactics. Sometimes they went into hiding, sometimes they rose up. Sometimes they were forced to conceal themselves and sometimes they stood up against the oppression in their enthusiasm for the truth so that their blood might become a beacon lighting the path for others. Some great Shi'ahs, therefore, paid no heed to taqiyah and braved all kinds of cruelties, sometimes ending up. as martyrs. There is the very famous story of the martyrs of Maraj Azra, who were fourteen brave warriors who sacrificed their lives in the way of God under the leadership of the pious companion Hajar ibn Abi Kindi. He was also the military leader who was responsible for the conquest of Syrai. Mu'awiyyah said of him, "I know what was the case with everyone of those whom I put to the sword in Maraj Azra, but I am at a loss to understand what the crime of Hajar was for which he was killed." But we can easily say what his fault was. He did not feel there was any need to do taqiyah, because he wanted to let the world know the tyranny of the Umayyids and the deep religious feelings of his own family. Let us not forget the events surrounding the ends of the great companions 'Amr ibn Himq al-Khuza'i and 'Abdu'r-Rahman ibn al-Hasan al-Ghazi, who were buried alive by ibn Ziyad. Nor Maytham Tammar, Rushayd al-Hajari and 'Abdullah ibn Yaqfar who were crucified. Moreover, there are the examples of the hundreds and thousands of other Muslims who died fighting for their beliefs. in the way of God before the disbelievers who crushed them to death. These lovers of truth did not do taqiyah because such was the need of the moment. Their abstaining from taqiyah protected the truth and showed up the false religiosity of Mu'awiyyah, Yazid, Ziyad and Ibn Ziyad. How can we possibly forget the events surrounding the martyrdom of al-Husayn (a.s.) and his worthy companions? They, of course, considered taqiyah to be unlawful in its particular circumstances, but there are other situations in which it may be compulsory, or may be merely optional. It is reported that once Musaylimah, the false prophet, captured two Muslims and forced them to acknowdedge his prophethood and deny the prophethood of Muhammad (s.a.w.). One of them refused and was therefore killed, but the other accepted and was released. When the news reached the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.), he said, "The first man made haste to reach heaven, the second man marked his time. Both of them will be recompensed." O Muslims! Do not taunt your brothers concerning taqiyah. May God bless you and us in the hereafter, and may we all be united on the point of guidance. Salam, peace, to you all, and may God bestow on you His Mercy and His Blessings.

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