Post #125,008
11/10/03 9:14:12 PM
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Signoff
Something about fish.
--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #125,012
11/10/03 9:19:49 PM
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Come back soon. You're an important part of the crew.
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Post #125,014
11/10/03 9:24:23 PM
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WTF is going on?
Some of us don't jabber or do lists, so we're left to wonder..
Hope whatever it is gets better.
-drl
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Post #125,015
11/10/03 9:33:18 PM
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Trust me Ross....
You don't wanna know.
It is a 15 way bitchfest on the Mailing list about using the Mailing list for "iwe@www,vtluug.edu" logins (or whatever) and about half of the e-mail being non-sequitor. And some removal of admin privs... after a not well thought out removal of the wrong subscriber.
Truse me... it ain't worth re-hashing.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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Post #125,023
11/10/03 10:17:11 PM
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Kangaroo Court in session
Claiming 'tyranny-of-majority privileges' sans even the courtesy of a plebiscite, to determine just what size the Minority view might be. Hmmm - just like Government.
Factoid: Of 3 with Admin privileges, 2 have decided to break sword and rip off epaulets of #3. Now The Two are 100% Right, for agreeing with each other. There is no 'minority view'. Neat, convenient, Righteous. Possibly portentous on a larger scale than some minor List.
What's it about?
Karsten Did Something without formal vote of all the tacit, unparticipating roster.. *First*. Much pissing and moaning over an idea K. thought perhaps helpful to many? a few? some?
What do I think it's about? [opinion]
Canaries?
(it doesn't really matter What idea, above - except to observe that - if not liked, the consequences are vanishingly small, easily rectifiable and thus fucking petty to waste a shit-load of stupid homilies over. And sanctimonious hyperbole.)
About:
Control-freakery; the nagging under-the-surface fear that somehow, somewhere - someone might . . . try a little idea that seems neat -- but Of Which I Have No Need\ufffd. And He Didn't Ask *moi* First. As in, so much for allowing for small experimentation without Formal Procedures.
(ie Imagine a discussion of 'democracy' by someone who'd never read Walt Whitman's pithy remarks upon our obdurate know-nothingism of the idea -- then fold into the mix the cute ditty, The Murican Peepul Think ___.)
[/opinion]
Fact - if Karsten really doesn't reconsider: TWiki -??- and the few thousand (?) hours as went into his contributions: Let The List manage. Let 'Them' as talks 'Do'.
{Sheesh} - and from this Dress Rehearsal: wonder what the Hive Mind will say (never mind 'Do') when morning news announces the Next 'invasion' (begun last night, for Your Security) or a little response to NK. Or - -
Pshaw,
Ashton
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Post #125,025
11/10/03 10:30:33 PM
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His admin right was forfeit...
...by the simple fact that he used it to remove a member just because he disagreed.
He has since apologized. Rightly so.
The rest is the largest freakin over-reaction fest I have ever seen on the part of anyone.
He was asked not to something ever again. He did it again. And the people who asked the first time got upset again.
Big surprise?
Apparently.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,031
11/10/03 11:23:42 PM
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What Bill said.
Karsten got defrocked because he seriously fucked up, Ashton, in case you missed it (which you did). It had very little to do with the web registrations, and an awful lot to do with him abusing his admin status by unsubscribing a member for disagreeing with him.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #125,032
11/11/03 12:10:50 AM
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Re: What Bill said.
What was the topic at hand?
Karsten has always been a model of sanity. I can't imagine him doing that.
Maybe he's having troubles.
-drl
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Post #125,050
11/11/03 3:44:05 AM
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I didn't miss that.
(And I hate to 'consider the source' in such unnecessary brouhahas - because it's an attitude both demeaning and condescending to numbers of folks.)
I hope it was worth it - this small experiment on default mail addresses and their Cosmic Importance. Unclear whether Karsten's little test might have proved handy for a few; I never got a chance to vote. But (even) I can see, that the reversal of his efforts would have been simple - whether or not it was liked by some of the silent ones - or was not very useful.
I also read with comprehension the content of some of the Other Admin exchanges - with at least two noticeable sub-topics:
1) Whether or not Peter's comment to RM was a suggestion.. or a threat. RM was not going-with-the-program.
2) Whether or not Rob N had any POV of his own - or had created a "Majority Mob" opinion in his head - which would obviate the need for his ever having a POV.
I also read Yaz's exchanges, and all the rest. He doesn't come here though, so.
(So ... WTF has his opinion to do with zIWE?)
Perfection - appears to be about universally absent, whichever way one looks at 1) or 2). And I see that I am not alone in viewing the matter from this angle, quite apart from any techno issues.
Karsten's error in judgment re banning seems.. to have occurred following too little sleep [??] and during the onset of breathless personal excoriations. I've met Karsten. Karsten is Not an irrational vengeance-seeking person. Normally. Period. That is my circumstantial evidence.
He may be impatient with certain formatory rules. What a dastardly trait, apparently. I don't pretend to be privy to all the details that appear to bug a bunch of folks, but I noted the complaints about his cc.ing a bunch of SPAM-related crap back to M$, apparently without considering BW costs. Maybe there's more and then again.. maybe what I was reading was just what it looked like:
the invective of common gossip, triggered in exaggerated fashion - for trying a trivial experiment that could easily have been undone. And then: not immediately apologizing for opposing a 'majority'! (of a small % of the usually completely silent 'List'). Who Knows What The. List. might have made of such a 'convenience feature' - we don't know. Moot.
The dudgeon wasn't about some imaginary damage already done -- but much more about Not Asking Permission.. of The List. Mother, May I?
Nice work, mob. And screw the very much work he has contributed over the years, not just in the n-hours refining TWiki. Not to mention the lore which would make him a National Treasure in any small country. And, even where I don't care to employ the subject matter - I can damn well discern an excellent tech writer. That he is.
AND THIS AIN'T TRIVIAL: at least insofar as links to IWE appear to be morphing into Google; are a springboard to (among other things) Andrew's Opus Maximus - of All the skinny on M$, presented in readable form .. by Anyone with half a brain. And ""we"" [but not *I*] just fired a Writer, in this diminishing pool.
Do something Rash: R I P P L E S . . .
So then - in perspective I see:
If *YOU* Scott, had gotten pissed some particularly evil-Friday
(say, with a weekend ahead of you fixing a major system fuck-up you'd warned about but they went ahead and..)
.. and banned somebody who'd been carping:
bet $$, your uncharacteristic rash act would be pointed out with damn little hyperbole, much understanding and no ad-hominem - and you'd have a chance to fix it. (And no doubt- would).
And remember: why-it-was that One was banned. There were arguments against your decision, but they were civil, unlike today's pile-on. And recall how it was that example #2: was meant to be a limited time-span ban. (Though it had the effect of permanence, in hindsight.)
I don't like mobs. In Armanis or Levis. This was a hissy fit about Not Going through Channels; an attitude which prevents Surprises, including pleasant ones. That overreaction led to his lapse -?- close enough for (my) Government analysis.
I'll miss his intelligence, his competence and.. his aberrations - all in all, a lot kinder compendium, I deem - than the viciousness of his Punishment for Trying Something\ufffd. I'm disappointed that this little experiment in 'democracy' managed to miss the point about tolerance of individual peculiarities: completely.
And responses to several of Rick M's efforts to bring that perspective, convince me that I'm not imagining the overkill of invective. (and Hey.. I've been flamed for stupid-kid name games by the very same RM - could I be reverse-biased? like a 12AX7)
I could be wrong, natch. Maybe when you get to know C+, you don't need human psych any more. You want perfect consensus? EZ - pull plug.
IT - Eats Its Own
Ashton
I don't know C.
But I know the Haydn Trumpet Concerto - it's in E-flat.
As a trumpeter I have made errors.
There was no punishment - except that of more practice.
Were this a universal trait . . .
I wish there was a knob on the TV to turn up the intelligence. There's a knob called 'brightness', but it doesn't work.
Gallagher
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Post #125,052
11/11/03 3:59:16 AM
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Re: I didn't miss that.
1) Whether or not Peter's comment to RM was a suggestion.. or a threat. RM was not going-with-the-program. It was a request, as clarified. I'd stated my opinion, Rick had stated his. They don't meet in the middle, and no amount of argumentation will ever change that. Karsten's error in judgment re banning seems.. to have occurred following too little sleep [??] and during the onset of breathless personal excoriations. I've met Karsten. Karsten is Not an irrational vengeance-seeking person. Normally. Period. That is my circumstantial evidence. Unfortunately one of the consequences of being an admin of anything is that one's hissy fits have magnified consequences. The dudgeon wasn't about some imaginary damage already done -- but much more about Not Asking Permission.. of The List. Mother, May I? How about, "guys, mind if I do this thing?"? Nice work, mob. And screw the very much work he has contributed over the years, not just in the n-hours refining TWiki. Not to mention the lore which would make him a National Treasure in any small country. And, even where I don't care to employ the subject matter - I can damn well discern an excellent tech writer. That he is. I can't say I'm exactly pleased with this outcome, myself. AND THIS AIN'T TRIVIAL: at least insofar as links to IWE appear to be morphing into Google; are a springboard to (among other things) Andrew's Opus Maximus - of All the skinny on M$, presented in readable form .. by Anyone with half a brain. And ""we"" [but not *I*] just fired a Writer, in this diminishing pool. No, he fired himself. He took a decision. I respect him for doing that, even though I think it's the wrong decision. If *YOU* Scott, had gotten pissed some particularly evil-Friday<
(say, with a weekend ahead of you fixing a major system fuck-up you'd warned about but they went ahead and..)
.. and banned somebody who'd been carping:
bet $$, your uncharacteristic rash act would be pointed out with damn little hyperbole, much understanding and no ad-hominem - and you'd have a chance to fix it. (And no doubt- would). I'd have ripped him a new arsehole to the best of my abilities. I'd expect others to do the same. I'll miss his intelligence, his competence and.. his aberrations - all in all, a lot kinder compendium, I deem - than the viciousness of his Punishment for Trying Something\ufffd. I'm disappointed that this little experiment in 'democracy' managed to miss the point about tolerance of individual peculiarities: completely. There has been spectacular overreaction from all sides. The final outcome is very unfortunate. It didn't need to happen. No winners this time.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #125,074
11/11/03 8:08:25 AM
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Honestly said.
I don't believe any variant of the blame game is remotely applicable, and I'm glad that you seem similarly inclined. And while I may well be a Party-of-One, I also don't believe that "the rulez" about list management can count for a bucket ot warm spit, re human events that took years to form. (Note how quickly National Honor can come dangerously close to the toilet rapidly, after a lot of years building it.)
Thanks for a sane set of observations. I hope that some apologies shall happen. More, I hope they prove acceptable - trust can be reearned, and that's always an odd situation, one which can only help both 'sides' become less judgmental. Wiser? An opportunity, almost (!)
Regards,
Ashton
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Post #125,077
11/11/03 8:18:07 AM
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Re: Honestly said.
While I am regretful that events turned out the way they did, I cannot honestly say that my position has altered. Where a group asset is involved, it's just old fashioned manners to ask folks before messing with it.
I'm minded of a barn up on the hill. It's ours; we built it with our own toil and sweat. We're rightfully proud of it, and awfully attached to it. We use it for all sorts of things. Some people keep chickens in it, others hold meetings in it, yet others have a corner where they quietly work away on their own stuff, occasionally hollering the group to give a progress report.
Someone wants to use the barn for something it's never been used for before. It's not tremendously inconvenient, but on principle alone you'd figure that some of the group would take exception, even though you'd expect that the majority would be OK with it.
Wouldn't YOU ask, even if only to avert a confrontation?
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #125,079
11/11/03 8:28:17 AM
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Some people like Surprises.
In hindsight - sure, better.. But if a thing can be undone in a trice anyway - Who Is Harmed? How intractable is too intractable.. re any tradition or policy?
The answer is undoubtedly
42
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Post #125,166
11/11/03 3:15:34 PM
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Some take a long time learning that
Wouldn't YOU ask, even if only to avert a confrontation? Some people take a long time learning that. I think you found that out during the recent exchange: one poster in particular who has no concept of the Other; only the Principle of the thing. When that position is extreme (and it only gets more so by being prodded ;), such people appear to prefer forgiveness over permission. That's not what's really happening in their heads: they really did not perceive the social dimension. A lucky few learn that people matter more than ideas. If any of you are NT's, this applies to you. Knowing the Truth isn't everything. I was one of the original authors of VB, and *I* wouldn't use VB for a text
processing program. :-) Michael Geary, on comp.lang.python
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Post #125,066
11/11/03 6:37:01 AM
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Ashton Ashton Ashton...
Like this forum, the mailing list is an autocracy, not a democracy. It's just that both are run along consensus type guidelines that make them look like a democracy. This is an important detail. Such administration is common, but the nature of it is that excesses are hard to check. I know: I've been there! :-) Twice, in fact... Two hats are not a comfortable fit on my head. One will do.
Peter has summarised admirably. There were actions taken that some took exception to. Sparks flew. Words burned. Chasms uncovered. One decided it was too hot and put some distance between himself and the conflagration. Those fanning flames - yes, *all* involved - should be suitably chastised. It was not a desired outcome.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #125,117
11/11/03 10:57:54 AM
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I thought we were an autonomous collective?
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Post #125,119
11/11/03 10:59:36 AM
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Altogether now....
..."We're all individuals".
... "I'm not."
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #125,122
11/11/03 11:27:39 AM
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Re: Altogether now....
There's always been a "team" in meat helmet.
Did you know "meat helmet" is an anagram for "meet Thelma"?
-drl
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Post #125,016
11/10/03 9:47:30 PM
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'mon back
Yeah, you were a bit tired and silly.
Yeah, there were some overreactions.
It'll pass.
Missing you won't.
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Post #125,021
11/10/03 9:57:10 PM
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I need you to keep me honest
-drl
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Post #125,030
11/10/03 11:22:40 PM
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take a breather
several people have had their feelings hurt, yours among them I'd wager. none of that can be fixed by isolating yourself from the people who care about you. go for a bike ride. smell some roses. climb a hillside and enjoy the view. who's right and who's wrong isn't the most important thing here.
come back. this episode doesn't have to end so bitterly.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #125,045
11/11/03 2:15:30 AM
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Re: Signoff
[RM notes: The following is from Karsten, not me. He caught me in IRC and asked me to post it for him. I guess you can send him replies, if so driven, at kmself@ix.netcom.com. In the interest of preserving what shreds of a name I have left after treatment by Mike Vitale, Peter Whysall, Scott Andersen, Brad Barclay, Bill Patient, and others, I present the following. Zeroth: there are a number of people whose regular interaction I'll greatly miss. Some of you know who you are; I suspect some of you don't. Drop me a line, if you don't get a f--- off, you guessed right ;-) First: regarding my abuse and consequent stripping of admin privs. As my Open Forum public apology posts make clear, I made a bad lapse of judgement in anger, frustration, and fatigue. Unlike a number of smaller persons here, I promptly and publicly apologized. By way of explanation, and without pleading mitigation: I saw Mike's [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/000954.html|initial "Karsten: Fucking stop it" response to the courtesy notice I posted to the mailing list], followed by similar (though tamer) sentiments by Peter. After posting a list response, I found a second mail from Mike in my personal inbox. Hazards of CC'ing list mail: I blew my stack. "Don't want to get list mail Mike? Fine: don't get list mail". As I said: Inexcusable on my part. My privileges were correctly curtailed. [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/000980.html|The justification given by Rob Nelson], that "Karsten has signed up this email list's address for external accounts" is (arguably) wrong or misleading. I haven't subscribed the list to any external mailing lists. I have used it (as described in my post earlier to "Suggestions") to provide a group resource. Following the specific direction given me by Peter Whysall from the prior instance. Second: The Lie.The constant refrain is "he was asked not to something ever again". There's one slight problem with that story. It's not true. Nobody said "don't use the list address for website access registration". Indeed: at least one person has been using non-delivery addresses, without prior approval at the time he admitted to the practice, for the same purpose. Without sharing the access codes or sites to which they belong, with any of the group. I most explicitly wasn't using the group for personal purposes, but to provide a shared access resource. I've posted the entire original "Aberdeen" mail threads (the original history is absent from the VTLUUG archive) [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Download/Aberdeen|here] (mbox format). What you'll find here: Brad Barclay goes apeshit (there really isn't a polite word for it) when the first Aberdeen post appears. It's pretty clear he thinks the list has been subscribed to a constant stream of content (it hasn't). Rather, a single set of confirmation mail requests and final confirmations are sent to the list. I'm including Brad's initial post and my response in full, at the end of this message. And while his initial response to a message that's clearly not from a subscriber appears out of the blue might be understandable, his subsequent failure to correct his initial mistake is inexcusable. Over an ensuing 28 posts, he never fully grasps the situation, and never apologizes for his initial actions (a fact which stands to date).
- Scott Andersen didn't post to the thread at all.
- Greg Folkert made some incidental comments.
- Rob Nelson asked several questions aimed at finding out why the initial registration was sent to list.
- Peter Whysall made the only statement of a protocol change, namely that prior notice be given next time.
Peter's mail, in full:
\nFrom: Peter Whysall <peter.whysall@ntlworld.com> \nDate: 09 Dec 2002 00:23:07 +0000 \nTo: iwe <iwe@vtluug.org> \nList-Id: IWETHEY Mailing List <iwe.www.vtluug.org> \nEnvelope-to: karsten@localhost \nOrganization: The IWETHEY Project \nSubject: [Iwe] Are you some kind of raving IDIOT, you utter MADMAN!? \nX-BeenThere: iwe@www.vtluug.org \nX-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 \n \nOn Sun, 2002-12-08 at 22:56, Karsten M. Self wrote: \n> on Sun, Dec 08, 2002 at 05:23:44AM -0500, Rob Nelson (ronelson@vt.edu) wrote: \n> > >> If someone can give me a good reason why they registered this, \n> > >> I _might_ be willing to give them back control to the account. \n> > >> Otherwise, I'm nuking it at my earliest convienence. \n> > > \n> > >Please revert the email to this list. \n> > \n> > Is there a *reason* that it's being sent to the list? \n> \n> This list (or specifically: the administrator approval dialog, which is \n> where the messages will end up) is being used as the contact point for \n> this aberdeen account. Most significanlty, if there's a need to get a \n> password reset or reminder sent, it will go to a known address. \n> \n> I subscribed to Aberdeen as one of several free-for-use-but-registration- \n> required systems (The New York Times, LA Times, etc., are others). \n> Aberdeen doesn't allow the iwethey/iwethey id/passphrase the key is \n> email/passphrase -- iwethey@vtluug.org/iwethey. \n> \n> Peace. \n \nEr, a little message to the list beforehand would probably have defused \na lot of this tension. \n \nP. \n-- \nPeter Whysall <peter.whysall@ntlworld.com> \nThe IWETHEY Project \n \n_______________________________________________ \nIwe mailing list \nIwe@www.vtluug.org \n[link|http://www.vtluug.org/mailman/listinfo/iwe|http://www.vtluug.or...lman/listinfo/iwe] \n
That's some highly wishful thinking on Peter's part. Particularly as the three threads of flame descended from:
- [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/000951.html|[Iwe] Forbes registration just requested]
- [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/000952.html|[Iwe] CNET registration just requested]
- [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/000980.html|[Iwe] Change of List Administration]
What's particularly ironic is the fact that the flame and vitriol emerge from the courtesy notices, rather than the registration posts themselves. I'll also note that, contrary to Bill Patient's assertions, the list archives [link|http://labrador.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/|are publicly available]. Regarding use of an alternate email -- that part of the discussion frankly slipped my mind, I've got numerous reasons (again, see Suggestions) for using the one I did, and there was never a request that this be made common practice, contrary to statements and implications to the contrary. Regarding the behavior I've seen in the past 24 hours: I can tolerate (and invite) informed, honest, intelligent intellectual debate and differences. I dislike jingoism, shills, and the intellectually dishonest, though I can work in their presence. What I absolutely refuse to tolerate are direct personal attacks, backstabbing, character assassination, lies about my person, actions, or past instructions, and quisling. This is what I've received directly at the hands of Mike Vitale, Peter Whysall, Scott Andersen, Brad Barclay, and Bill Patient. That's a bridge you cross once, that's a trust you don't win back. I thank those who've spoken in my defense. I'll continue to manage TWIT for the time being. I've abandoned my zIWT and jIWT accounts, and unsubscribed from the mailing list. I've rescinded my administrative access on knight and Peter's personal servers. I don't know what happens next, but it won't be here.
Brad Barclay's initial post from December 6, 2002:
\nFrom: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@jsyncmanager.org>\nDate: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:56:08 -0500 (EST)\nTo: "iwe@vtluug.org" <iwe@vtluug.org>\nReply-To: Brad BARCLAY <bbarclay@jsyncmanager.org>\nList-Id: IWETHEY Mailing List <iwe.www.vtluug.org>\nEnvelope-to: karsten@localhost\n<confirm-192110296-0-73417168-2qevqbv5fzruq@adm.cheetahmail.com>\nSubject: Re: [Iwe] Aberdeen Group Registration Confirmation - Please REPLY\n\nOn 7 Dec 2002 01:51:23 -0000, Aberdeen Group wrote:\n\nHey Everyone:\n\n>THANKS for registering to receive e-mail subscriptions from Aberdeen Group.\n>In order to protect our subscribers from spam emails, we ask that\n>you confirm your registration:\n\n WTF is this crap? Who registered this mailing list to receive\nthis stuff?\n\n Whomever it was, I'm not particularily happy about it. If I\nwanted their junk, I'd register for it myself. \n\n Anticipating that others here would feel the same way, I've\ngone in and changed the e-mail address it sends to to one on my domain,\nwhich spools directly to /dev/null. It wasn't too hard to get ahold of\nthe password for the account and make the change, so I've done it.\nI'll shortly make the null e-mail address completely invalid, so mail\nto it is undeliverable. Oh, and I've changed the password as well.\n\n Whomever registered this listing here claims to be at "431\nHenly Dr., Seattle, WA, 98109", under the name of "Dr. Iwe They".\n\n If someone can give me a good reason why they registered this,\nI _might_ be willing to give them back control to the account.\nOtherwise, I'm nuking it at my earliest convienence.\n\nYaz.\n\n\n=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\n>From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.\nE-Mail: yaztromo@acm.org Web: [link|http://www.jsyncmanager.org|http://www.jsyncmanager.org]\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nIwe mailing list\nIwe@www.vtluug.org\n[link|http://www.vtluug.org/mailman/listinfo/iwe|http://www.vtluug.or...lman/listinfo/iwe]\n
My response:
\nFrom: "Karsten M. Self" <kmself@ix.netcom.com>\nDate: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:54:26 +0000\nTo: "iwe@vtluug.org" <iwe@vtluug.org>\nList-Id: IWETHEY Mailing List <iwe.www.vtluug.org>\nEnvelope-to: karsten@localhost\nSubject: Re: [Iwe] Aberdeen Group Registration Confirmation - Please REPLY\n\non Fri, Dec 06, 2002 at 09:56:08PM -0500, Brad BARCLAY\n(bbarclay@jsyncmanager.org) wrote:\n> On 7 Dec 2002 01:51:23 -0000, Aberdeen Group wrote:\n>\n> Hey Everyone:\n>\n> >THANKS for registering to receive e-mail subscriptions from Aberdeen Group.\n> >In order to protect our subscribers from spam emails, we ask that \n> >you confirm your registration:\n>\n> WTF is this crap? Who registered this mailing list to receive\n> this stuff?\n\nI signed for an Aberdeen Group password. Their posts won't hit the list\nunless the sending address is subscribed. I manually approved the conf\nmessages.\n\nI'll track down the unsub info when I'm tired of manually kicking any\nposts that come from their address.\n\n> Whomever it was, I'm not particularily happy about it. If I\n> wanted their junk, I'd register for it myself.\n>\n> Anticipating that others here would feel the same way, I've\n> gone in and changed the e-mail address it sends to to one on my domain,\n> which spools directly to /dev/null.\n\nPlease revert the address to this list so that password updates can be\nmailed to the list. Again, this is a closed, subscribers-only list, aon\nonly approved posts will be posted.\n\n> It wasn't too hard to get ahold of\n> the password for the account and make the change, so I've done it.\n> I'll shortly make the null e-mail address completely invalid, so mail\n> to it is undeliverable. Oh, and I've changed the password as well.\n>\n> Whomever registered this listing here claims to be at "431\n> Henly Dr., Seattle, WA, 98109", under the name of "Dr. Iwe They".\n\napt-get install rig. Random ID Generator.\n\n> If someone can give me a good reason why they registered this,\n> I _might_ be willing to give them back control to the account.\n> Otherwise, I'm nuking it at my earliest convienence.\n\nPlease revert the email to this list.\n\nPeace.\n\n--\nKarsten M. Self <kmself@ix.netcom.com> [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\n What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand?\n Iomega: click of death, Jaz Junk, and now, NAS? Not!\n [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=iomega+jaz+drive+failure|http://www.google.co...jaz+drive+failure]\n_______________________________________________\nIwe mailing list\nIwe@www.vtluug.org\n[link|http://www.vtluug.org/mailman/listinfo/iwe|http://www.vtluug.or...lman/listinfo/iwe]\n
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #125,047
11/11/03 2:43:05 AM
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This is all very fscked up
I don't care who is right or wrong. We've been together for a long time and we should remain intact.
This kind of thing is what I had in mind so long ago when I was skeptical about administrative power residing among groups members. Of course, the administrators have handled it very well - but there is a loss, nevertheless. Scott in particular, can't "let his hair down" it seems - because responsibility requires a degree of aloofness, even among friends. I wish he could just be "No.1 programmer Scott" again.
I read over the threads in the mailing list. I have no comment about the issue, the players, or the outcome, other than this - some of the people who were most vocal in the thread never bother coming around here to even say "hi" once in a while. Now, this may just be my "inferior thinking function" ruining my judgment, but I think a lot of weight has to be given to the fact that Karsten is always here, sharing his knowledge and experiences with us - and that somehow "counts" for more than a mailing list. I'll leave it at that. Lord knows I've been crazy with frustration on many occasions, said and done stupid things, but I come back to this group because you people are my friends, and that's the bottom line. I think we should forget this issue and get K back here and go forward. Loyalty is more important than being right.
-drl
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Post #125,062
11/11/03 6:19:30 AM
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This is sort of reason why OLMRs were good.
Back in the days of FidoNet, people used Offline Mail Readers to batch-download new messages in their areas of interest, read and contributed over a few days and uploaded their responses when getting the next download. There was therefore a built-in cooling off period for hot messages - a chance to go back to your vitriol before you uploaded it and water it down or even delete it. It was a side-effect a lot of people appreciated.
Nowadays email is too instant and it is too easy to send things better left to render down for a while, as it were.
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #125,103
11/11/03 10:19:10 AM
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Personal response to Ross
Ross, Re: Lord knows I've been crazy with frustration on many occasions, said and done stupid things, but I come back to this group because you people are my friends, and that's the bottom line. If stupid were currency, we'd all be rich! I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion. jb4
"There are two ways for you to have lower Prescription-drug costs. One is you could hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper ... or you can elect me President."
John Kerry
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Post #125,147
11/11/03 12:43:55 PM
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Re: Personal response to Ross
If stupid were currency, we'd all be rich! I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion. I agree also. Everyone makes mistakes, and screws up. Unless it's clear that they "aren't sorry", not the case here, or "don't intend to change it", also does not seem to be the case here, they deserve to get another chance. I hope Karsten calms down and comes back, and I'll keep the entire situation in my prayers for a good resolution. Nightowl >8# "I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"
Comment by Nightowl
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Post #125,104
11/11/03 10:22:39 AM
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Werd.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #125,115
11/11/03 10:55:20 AM
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'Nother werd
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #125,128
11/11/03 11:45:17 AM
11/11/03 11:58:31 AM
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The way I see it
Karsten apologized and admitted to doing something wrong out of anger, lack of sleep, etc. He made a mistake, admitted to it and now he is gone. Look at all the mistakes I've made, and things I have done and I am allowed back on. Sure not everyone has forgiven me, but I've tried not to make those mistakes again. Not everyone is perfect.
I think I recall a Yahoo Address I made a long time ago for registration use by the IWETHEY group. True I didn't use a mailing list address, I created a bogus one for group use. I think it was "iwethey0" IIRC, as someone else took "iwethey". [link|http://profiles.yahoo.com/iwethey0|http://profiles.yahoo.com/iwethey0] created 5/02/2001
As far as the password goes, it is "iwethey". It would be useful to read Yahoo Groups and register for online services using Yahoo mail using this account.
I know how privacy oriented everyone here is in not wanting to give out personal info, but still wanting to read articles that registration is required. Usually an iwethey/iwethey account is created to read articles.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
Edited by orion
Nov. 11, 2003, 11:58:31 AM EST
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Post #125,144
11/11/03 12:21:41 PM
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ummm... well... I... err... hmm... amaz...
/me picks up his jaw...
Norm, I cannot tell you how^W^W^W^W^W^W
I just don't quite^W^W^W^W
*FBOG*
You chime in and mess with my current read on the World.
Congratulations Norm, you for the time being are out of my TWIT/CSS File.
This has completely taken me by surprise.
You actually GOT and UNDERSTOOD the message trying to be relayed to Karsten.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
Indeed my world has been stood on ear.
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Post #125,149
11/11/03 12:48:43 PM
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Re: ummm... well... I... err... hmm... amaz...
He's changed a lot, Greg. I've watched it happen.
I don't completely get the entire situation, but I get the concept and I get the message being relayed, even if I don't understand all the technical details about mailing lists and other issues with that.
I see simply that someone made a command decision on their own without consulting the other Admins, and I consider that inconsiderate and wrong, as well as unfair to whomever the decision was about. Being a victim of that myself once, I completely relate to that part.
Nightowl >8#
"I learned to be the door, instead of the mat!" "illegitimi nil carborundum"
Comment by Nightowl
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Post #125,156
11/11/03 1:54:36 PM
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Dude...
Give the boy a break!
(Oh,...I guess you have...!)
Norm's posts of late have been much more focused, cogent, and on target. FWIW, I'm pleased that the spirit of reconcilliation has grabbed you, and you're willing to give Norm another reading. IMHO, he deserves it.
Now Marlowe, on the other hand,...........
jb4
"There are two ways for you to have lower Prescription-drug costs. One is you could hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper ... or you can elect me President."
John Kerry
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Post #125,173
11/11/03 3:45:24 PM
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I owe it all to my college class
I am learning how to read better and study better and focus better. I am taking a general studies class at the University of Phoenix and learning how to learn all over again. My doctor suggested it for me to help me out with my mental problems. I spend 40 hours a week dedicated to the class, 5 hours for class time, 5 hours for team time, and 30 hours for reading, studying, writing papers, research, and other misc stuff. Only one class at a time, but 5 weeks for that class in an accelerated learning. I just got back my first writing paper and got a 9 out of 10 on it, 90% is the most I've gotten on a written paper. Most of the grade was for critical thinking, flow, and creativity. All the hours I spend at it stress me out, but so far I am managing. If I last two years, I get a bachalor's degree in Business Management. If not, at least I learn something that might help me, and I need all the help I can get. :)
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #125,212
11/11/03 7:09:02 PM
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bloody Good Show, Norman!
As you seem to be finding out.. sometimes the "class content" doesn't matter at all.. but the focussed (A)ttention appears to be exactly what the (chemistry of the) neurons Need to make new pathways. Don't have to know anything about their 'chemistry' beyond: It Works.
(This I have also personally verified to be similar re "how the body moves" - something most of us stopped paying attention-to after about 3 yo.. to our detriment. But that's Another thread sometime)
Hang in there,
Ashton
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Post #125,235
11/11/03 8:45:55 PM
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Well done Norm
My first response to one of your posts in quite a while. I had given up on you. Glad to see I was wrong to have done so. Continue with this. It seems to be working.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #125,295
11/12/03 8:59:14 AM
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Starting from scratch?
If I last two years, I get a bachalor's degree in Business Management. Is that including prior credits from an incomplete degree? Or is that from ground zero to a degree in two years? If it's the latter, I might have to look into that. ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #125,390
11/12/03 4:00:55 PM
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I have an Associates Degree in Data Processing
but only half the credits transfered because my classes happened 13 years ago. Most of the DP classes are electives now or no longer taught. I am going for a Business Management degree, so they don't matter anyway.
Check out [link|http://www.phoenix.edu/|http://www.phoenix.edu/] for more info. That is where I go. They have 5 hours classes, once a week, for five weeks at a time. If you are starting from scratch, you may want to go to a Community College and take some CLEP exams and quiz out of the Math, Science, English, Critical Thinking, etc classes. Then apply at Phoenix. Usually the UOP is there for people returning to college that have some credits already. Almost everyone that goes there is working, few like me are out of work. They also have an option for online classes, and Flexnet classes that meet a few weeks and are online the rest.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #125,396
11/12/03 4:14:02 PM
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Thanks, may try to work it into my schedule
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #125,217
11/11/03 7:30:20 PM
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Irony alert
Greg wrote:
You actually GOT and UNDERSTOOD the message trying to be relayed to Karsten.
Would that be the very same message that you far, far more significantly ignored in [link|http://www.vtluug.org/pipermail/iwe/2003-November/001092.html|posting malign gossip that disclosed confidential e-mail discussion] about Karsten's rift with Nick Petreley?
That's only a small case of needed-apology compared to those other four clowns (who unlike you went berzerk), in my view, but the hypocrisy you're displaying rankles.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #125,219
11/11/03 7:47:55 PM
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Irony...
How the fuck are you sure I didn't know about it from other sources... I remember the event.
I was just reminded of it. By your comments Karsten.
If you want to start this Rick Go some where else and masturbate.
And Anyway, if it WAS a confidential e-mail discussion... HOW the FUCK do you know it. Other than Karsten Forwarding it to You, Ashton and Peter. Well since the bag is out you want I should tell them the rest of the story then?
And Karsten, you did... DID indeed tell Every fucking body about your Rift with Nicholas Peterely.
And once again I re-iterate -- RICK Go masturbate somewhere else. And I don't want you to miss the menaing here. Go away. And that is NOT a request.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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Post #125,237
11/11/03 8:52:07 PM
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Irony, indeed.
Greg wrote:
if it WAS a confidential e-mail discussion....
Which it was.
HOW the FUCK do you know it.
Because -- as you already know -- Karsten Cc'd me on the mail where he deplored your abuse of it. QED.
How the fuck are you sure I didn't know about it from other sources?
I call bullshit on your implication, whereby you are currently attempting to excuse the breach of trust inherent in that piece of malicious gossip: Feel free to show us a non-confidential source where one might previously have read that Karsten "hasn't spoken/had contact with to Nicolas Petreley in Years [sic], because of a public dressing down". Otherwise, have fun stewing in hypocrisy.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #125,238
11/11/03 8:56:25 PM
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Nope... I am not making an attempt.
As you will see, IF YOU CAN READ, on the mailing list.
I did apologize for that infraction.
Go gnaw on your own suet. And Quit Stirring up this bad soup.
Go do your Mental Masturbation elsewhere.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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Post #125,242
11/11/03 9:23:40 PM
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Re: Nope... I am not making an attempt.
Greg wrote:
As you will see, IF YOU CAN READ, on the mailing list.
Came to my attention after my forum post. I am, of course, dropping that point, given your mailing list comment.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #125,133
11/11/03 11:57:18 AM
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Clarification and Apology
As my Open Forum public apology posts make clear, I made a bad lapse of judgement in anger, frustration, and fatigue. Unlike a number of smaller persons here, I promptly and publicly apologized. Yes you did. I commend you for that. The constant refrain is "he was asked not to something ever again".
There's one slight problem with that story.
It's not true.
Nobody said "don't use the list address for website access registration". After thorough review of all of the relevent documents, I agree. And since this is >my< read of the prior situation and largely the subject of my posts... I apologize for my mis-statement of prior events.What >actually< happened is Yaz was the first to respond in the Aberdeen incident in December. He did so >wrongly<, by hijacking the account until an explanation from Karsten was given. The "Aberdeen Incident" as I shall call it, was the first time that the list was hit with a confirmation email...that the email address was being used to confirm enrollment for web content from Aberdeen. And no...(note my apology)...in no following mail was Karsten directly asked to "not do it again". What were offered were 2 very simple suggestions...one from Brad and one from Peter. Both were extremely reasonable. Brad's suggestion, use an alternate email address for this activity. Peter's suggestion, ask first. Fast forward 11 months. The list is hit with 2 more confirmation emails. Obviously neither "suggestion" was taken....becasue the list address was used and there was no prior email from K saying "expect this". ============================================ There is the history. ============================================ Now I have read Karsten's reasons for doing what he did. THANK YOU KARSTEN FOR THIS EFFORT. While I am perfectly capable of signing up for my own content, the fact that you have taken your personal time to consolidate a list of available resources with common login procedures is indeed commendable. It would have been nice if I had seen that explanation 11 months ago. Indeed, if you had stated that as your intention prior to the "Aberdeen Incident", perhaps the path could have been clarified and all of this could have been avoided. What I have noticed in both incidents is that you lost your temper...both times. And now I have a better understanding of why this happened. You honestly felt you were doing us a favor. And again, I commend you for taking this initiative. =================================================== What I don't understand is how this has morphed into som big deal about "slandering my good name" or "nobody asked me too" . I was trying to interject a small not of sanity..."why not use an alternate email address". Considering it was suggested once..and that you had access to these resources...I thought it would have been fairly simple. But, according to your supporters, I'm an idiot for even suggesting it. And so, I suppose, I am. I guess I'll have to live with that. If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,140
11/11/03 12:07:33 PM
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Small nit.
Hi Bill, Fast forward 11 months.
The list is hit with 2 more confirmation emails. Obviously neither "suggestion" was taken....becasue the list address was used and there was no prior email from K saying "expect this". Karsten did post a small note before the confirmations from Forbes and CNet: Subject: [Iwe] Forbes registration just requested
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 15:46:55 -0800
Confirmation should post to list shortly.
--
After what happened earlier, I was immediately surprised that he didn't run it past the list before signing up, but he did give some notice. It's a terrible shame that it transpired the way it did. :-( I hope everyone can put it behind themselves so that we can get back to being one big, grumpy, family. :-) Cheers, Scott.
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Post #125,157
11/11/03 1:58:56 PM
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Yes, we DO do grumpy well, don't we...;-)
jb4
"There are two ways for you to have lower Prescription-drug costs. One is you could hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper ... or you can elect me President."
John Kerry
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Post #125,160
11/11/03 2:17:52 PM
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Imagine Thanksgiving with this group ... worse than family
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #125,163
11/11/03 2:28:41 PM
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Prolly *STILL* better than *MY* family at Thanksgiving.
Since the Matriarch is Dead and Gone... Likely no longer will we be blessed to see each other.
Feh... I say good riddance to MY famibly.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
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Post #125,249
11/11/03 10:22:19 PM
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thats famdamily you heathen :-)
I miss mine in Alaska. Huge Bird, lotsa neices and nephews, the wimmenfolk rush out the door to go to bingo, the men cleanup, feed fire in backyard, marshmellows etc and yarn until the wimmens return.
In floriduh we go to Shoney's its too fscking hot for a fire, and mow the lawn.
thanx,
bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #125,165
11/11/03 3:08:58 PM
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Hey, with enough beer, it might actually work!
I can imagine worse....
jb4
"There are two ways for you to have lower Prescription-drug costs. One is you could hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper ... or you can elect me President."
John Kerry
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Post #125,172
11/11/03 3:41:29 PM
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I can supply enough of that :-)
And have.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,170
11/11/03 3:39:29 PM
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Ah...yes. Missed that...and apologize again.
My main issue.
Maybe I was told but don't remember...of Karstens overall intent...essentially recreating the aged cypherpunks/cypherpunks login with an iwethey/iwethey login at various sites and keeping them listed at twiki.
Not being a regular twiki guy I never saw it. Nor had Karsten put together an explanation of the type he did just prior to yanking all his logins.
Seems more prudent..and really seems to be the congenial thing to do to just run that by folks and see if anyone has an issue.
I would have preferred to use an iwethey.org address for those that require email...because it would be easier for the group as a whole to remember that. (Not everyone has iwe at doggie vtluug org memorized. (I've been on since it started and it doesn't exactly flow off of my fingers even now)
And, unfortunately I guess, I know that it would have only required his asking for that email address to be created and for him to have been granted complete access to it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,068
11/11/03 6:49:49 AM
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Guess you won't see this.
But, irrespective of what's been happening, I'll miss you.
:(
John.
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Post #125,081
11/11/03 8:41:02 AM
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Don't go. Really.
Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
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Post #125,132
11/11/03 11:54:42 AM
8/21/07 6:37:38 AM
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Bummer
Madness it was.
"I believe that many of the systems we build today in Java would be better built in Smalltalk and Gemstone."
-- Martin Fowler, JAOO 2003
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Post #125,135
11/11/03 11:58:43 AM
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You guys are all . .
. . taking this Internet stuff way too seriously.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #125,171
11/11/03 3:40:42 PM
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Amen
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,138
11/11/03 12:02:49 PM
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I have 2 things to say.
1. Dammit
2. Grygus is right.
-----
Steve
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Post #125,177
11/11/03 4:02:33 PM
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ObAOLMeToo.
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Post #125,192
11/11/03 5:07:00 PM
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Team Conflicts (new thread)
Created as new thread #125191 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=125191|Team Conflicts]
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #125,228
11/11/03 8:20:34 PM
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Kristos crucios
You guys are taking this way too seriously, from what I can see here. So someone blew it, some other people blew it, and a whole wackload of people blew their collective stack frames. BFD. Calls to 'go masturbate somewhere else' are Not Good.
I don't know the story, and to be frank, I don't really care. Here's the point that must not be missed. We are friends here. That means that sometimes you've got to take the step back, breathe deep, and Let Things Go.
I'm saying this to both sides of the debate here. Sometimes you gotta count to ten. It looks like this is one of those times, looking in from the outside as I am.
--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca] [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post #125,233
11/11/03 8:28:20 PM
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All I can say is...
...ain't it strange that Orion is perhaps the most rational, clear headed individual, in this particular fray. :-)
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Post #125,234
11/11/03 8:29:26 PM
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Not way too seriously . .
. . orders of magnitude too seriously. Some people have gotten their egos entagled too deeply in something of rather little consequence. It's like brawls among academics, said to be so vicious because there is so little at stake.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #125,256
11/11/03 10:51:01 PM
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Re: Signoff
If anyone wishes to speak directly with me about what transpired, you can get my email from the mailing list archives. I'm not going to be commenting further on any of this in public. I have my reasons for what I said, which I am willing to share - privately. Karsten's blow up and Rick's fanning the flames (don't kid yourself Rick - you had a large part in this) didn't help anything. There's plenty of blame to go around here.
Since Karsten has effectively cut all communication, there's not much anyone can do to work this out. His decision.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #125,259
11/11/03 11:41:52 PM
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Speaking of leadership
Scott wrote:
Karsten's blow up and Rick's fanning the flames (don't kid yourself Rick - you had a large part in this)....
One of the disadvantages of pointing out people running off the rails and misbehaving is their tendency to get their backs up. Blaming the messenger then often comes naturally as the next step.
Some have posted apologies for the crap that they pulled. Others have at least had the good grace to not make excuses. Your reaction is to do none of the above, and want to blow it off.
Two days ago, I'd have said I'm disappointed. Today, you're clocking in just about exactly where I'd have predicted.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
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Post #125,261
11/12/03 12:05:47 AM
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all one can say is "wow"
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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