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Welcome to IWETHEY!

New You are doing it still/again.
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey

[insert witty saying here]
New Wry LRPD - Nothing like the smell of Nadsat in the morning!
New OT: That word really grates on my nerves
"Nadsat", that is.

The actual spelling would be much closer to "-n_a_tzat'" where "'" indicates a soft 't' sound.

As it is spelled, it's very close to the word "nadsad", which means strained, very loud shout or cry, often in distress. Not a word to be used lightly.

In any case, the Russian word that corrsponds to "teen" is not connected to numerics. The word is "podr_o_stok", literally translated as "undergrowth".
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New That was probably intentional.
Many of the words of Nadsat were [link|http://www.clockworkorange.com/nadsat.shtml|intentionally similar to several words], often with the intent of forming a multi-lingual pun.

Since the teens in Burgess' novel were often in distress (and hence took it out in violence), this extra meaning doesn't surprise me at all.

Nadsat isn't just Russian, incidentally. "[link|http://www.geocities.com/fidelio1st/literature/historyofnadsat.htm|Nadsat is influenced by] Russian, German, English, Cockney Slang, and it also contains invented slang."
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New If so, it's unfortunate
No slang would have a self-name that means "in distress". People just don't think this way.

And, btw, I noticed another similar slip in the text you're referring to. The word "tolchok", as far as I understand, stands for "push" or "hit". In Russian, this word is a noun, and it has a connotation of relatively small (-ok suffix), unintentional, almost "no-actor" event. A good usage would be: "Even though the trains collided at low speed, the "tolchok" was significant". Or: "Even though Mr.A did not push very hard, the "tolchok" enraged MR.B". Also, the real Russian slang uses this word as synonym of balck market or flea market. That meaning, and another one, of small pretext or cause of large event. is far more prevalent than the original meaning of physical pushing.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New A Clockwork Orange *was* a political commentary...
No slang would have a self-name that means "in distress". People just don't think this way.
But if the author was trying to make a point...

As far as changing the meaning or form of a word, tolchok is the least of your worries. "Khorosho" and "horrorshow" is a pretty good indication of how far Burgess went. As far as Russian slang goes, keep in mind the book was written in 1962. I don't know if that changes your argument or not.
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New 1962 does not change thje argument.
Also, not sure who said that he hates authors who kill chracters to make a point. Killing a language bugs me.
--

One Buffalo Bill
And one Biffalo Buff
New Share your pain - it's not a hopeful prospect.
The forces of Commerce and Corp-managed politics will kill any word as suits a purpose of dissembling for power - cf

Compassionate Conservative - a phrase whose invention.. indicated a need for the claim of a new sensibility: its image natch, not any actual change. Let's not even peek at patriotism as automatic support even for Idiots.

(and of course, by now: virtually every other label for formerly ~ recognizable political attitudes including even what "Left' or 'Right' might mean - in '03)

Alas too, as early as '60s I recall seeing in the Mother Country of (Our) Language - a double-decker bus at Oxford Circus, with a {ugh} Advert on its side:

Drinka
Pinta
Milka
Day

..shades of Dorothy L. Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey mystery at the Ad Agency, Murder Must Advertise.

et tu, Brute? then let there be Limbaughs. Who can say if it's already too late to actively begin reversing the damage? (That would require inculcation of a new respect for Language, in perhaps the most personally disrespectful Era yet)


Ashton, dinosaur
New It's also a creative use of slang
To me, nadsat is an interesting study in language evolution. Although the book was written in 1962, it's not intended to convey the slang of that year (or for that matter any other year). The book is set in the future and we know that slang evolves over time. Some slang words take on a meaning opposite from that of the original terminology (I'm a "bad" ass), other slang just combines words, or mispronounce them in creative ways.

No matter whether you read the book in the '60s or today, the language still seems futuristic. If you take any other book from that time period and look at their use of slang, you'll find they are hopelessly outdated.
New Internet tolchok on the gulliver :)

-drl
     The Anti-PHB - (inthane-chan) - (12)
         Nifty. -NT - (admin)
         My hero - (orion) - (10)
             You are doing it still/again. -NT - (folkert) - (9)
                 Wry LRPD - Nothing like the smell of Nadsat in the morning! -NT - (Ashton) - (8)
                     OT: That word really grates on my nerves - (Arkadiy) - (7)
                         That was probably intentional. - (admin) - (6)
                             If so, it's unfortunate - (Arkadiy) - (5)
                                 A Clockwork Orange *was* a political commentary... - (admin) - (3)
                                     1962 does not change thje argument. - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                         Share your pain - it's not a hopeful prospect. - (Ashton)
                                     It's also a creative use of slang - (ChrisR)
                                 Internet tolchok on the gulliver :) - (deSitter)

It is, however, a surprise that he's not been beaten to death with his own stapler.
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