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New I don't know
You see it as a massive intrusion.
Something that is coercive.
Something that you are forced to suffer under.

I see it as a trade.

They give me money, I behave a certain way.

Do I clean toilets? No.
Would I for the same pay? For a while.

Do I behave in front of clients? Yup.

Do I piss off other department heads which in turn
would get my boss in trouple? Nope.

Am I treated well?
Yup.

Do I see other people treated not as well as me?
Yup.

Do they contribute as much as me?
Not that I can see.

Does it bother me that they are in cubicles and
I'm in an office?
No.

In my case, I truly like what I do for my job. I'd
do most of it for free if I could afford to live otherwise.
Coding is fun. Sytem design is fun. Negotiating is Fun.

Sure, I have unreasonable deadlines and things I'd like
to change, but all in all I have a good deal.

The more you give, the more you get.
It is a trade.

The company values certain things more than others.
One of the highest things is values is a harmonious workplace.
Without that, nothing else is possible.

You feel there are certain things you don't exchange for pay.
I agree with the concept. I won't kill for it. I think.
But after that, pretty much everything is negotiable.
Certainly the concept of "free speech". No such thing.

They pay for my time. During that time, they pretty much control
EVERYTHING I do. They can't cause me pain, nor ignore my
bodily functions. Teacher wearing diapers? That crosses the
line. Unless they want to quadruple my pay. Then I'd consider it.

I had a counseler who asked a group of people:

What wouldn't you do for a million dollars? Assuming no ramifications
other than the memory of the act itself. No jail time.

My answer: Line 'em up, I'll suck'em off. Gimme an UZI and point me in
a direction. Whatever you want.

This was the standard answer of most of the people. Those that disagreed
would often waffle a while and then come up with situations where they
would break their strong moral line. It wasn't money, but there was always
a leverage point.

That was before I had kids. Now I'd balk at killing them for the million.
But I'd think about it for a few seconds. Maybe a minute for my daughter.

Does that answer your question?

I quit over being put in a cubicle 7 years ago. Would I do it again? No.
I'd explain why it was killing my ability to be productive and then negotiate
my way into an office. Part of maturing is understanding how to communicate
effectively. That does not typically include insulting the person you are talking
to.
New Thanks.
Yours goes in the honest reply undiluted with BS table. (That one's so short it doesn't even need to be indexed. I store it in braille on the world's second British Guiana One Cent magenta postage stamp. ;-) Oh: Each one from this list gets a footnote in The Thesis, should I ever feel the need for more academic Assurances I Am Greater Than Most.

I'll confess to the 'Don't Know' on lots of the Catch 22 questions out there, too.

(And while "walking onin others' moccasins and all" ever applies -- I see that I'd settle for / have settled for less$ and more-Moi than some of the examples suggested.) I've grown accustomed to needing very few of the Things To Die For, an actual surprise! {how easily I adapted} when I made a premeditated choice to trade My-time+neurons for Theirs.

With kids, of course all equations must become abnormalized - a factor I Know I cannot simulate even as a what-if. Prolly I'd Kill for {some} kids {not at all necessarily.. My-sperm spawned, either} - I've never pretended to religio-pacifism, or any of the other Manual-prescribed Goodnesses conjured up by Cloaked Crusaders for Conformity. {just more Job Security - that}

So, I guess mine is an easier course than yours + kids, and I have no pious judgments to pronounce (and if I did: I'd hope to be massively murdered, rhetorically at least ;-) After all - at zIWE: its the soich fer Truth what Counts!

Yours for a culture possessed of fewer Wants, less satisfiction with thing-collection and more Appreciation for humans generally -- (Oh.. and.. On Time, screw the Budget == while we still Can make that choice, natch.)


I Who Be
New You missed something
I didn't say I'd kill for them.
I said I'd consider killing them.
New Consideration is 66.17% of acceptance______:-\ufffd
BTW on reflection - {it's even Scarier}
Your brief but comprehensive essay makes clearest why it IS that none of the massive techno- and even socio- reasoning re the Mega-kluge which Doze is.. ever penetrates. In an atmosphere such as you describe, the 'verity' of ANY remark or reply is, in time - automatically filtered to perfection into the what 'they' wish to hear today bin (at least - among all those who stay for a time). If I read with comprehension.

Were I writing a Discworld clone, I could use your description of Bizness in Ankh-Morpork as a veritable storyboard backbone for describing the fear-factor which inhibits honest communication.. (and it does no 'good' that, via subtle and gradual innuendo, one might.. get across a small fraction of a Large idea. With trepidation, palpable Risk.)

ie. No Wonder! US-bizness Sucks Galaxy-sized spiked objects (and for that matter -- any other places that rote emulate Our Style). No Wonder either.. the depression, the ennui.. the fucking earned cynicism culminating in some variety of disgust - whenever some unfortunate near-Original thinker might find self amidst such regimented fluff.

Poor {naive} Bastard! Get. Out. and Live... *anywhere else*. Or shrivel down, to fit inside that Armani brain-armor + Power Leash around that constricted vulnerable neck.


Great sociology stuff! At least I finally grok to fullness the utter futility of what used to be called dialogue; it's all Monologue signifying nada, at baby-talk level of both sincerity and content. [No doubt there are a few exceptions.. At your level of tentative-acceptance, for possessing techno competence they Know they need: maybe you get an exemption from some of the affectations? Hope so.] But then.. you get to close a real door! too

Mr. Lay sez, "Gosh! nobody TOLD me.." and everyone Rolls Eyes. But.. WTF WOULD 'tell' Shark #1 that Unpleasant Thought #1 .. such a tangled web we weave when first we build a bizness on deceit -but please to call it- Team Spirit cha. cha. ca. ca. A Petri dish for the likes of Billy et al - who, like bin-Laden, perfectly Understand "how it Is that We Are.. here": Shark-meat.

{Gawd} Am I Glad: I Missed This !!! as in fucking {Whew!}
Causes me to feel even-Freer! by comparison, y'know?
So - It's an even Better Day! {out here} :-) :-)


Thanks again for the horrifying Survival Primer,

Ashton


{Whew} {Aaahhhhhh}

Edit: add comments
Expand Edited by Ashton Sept. 15, 2003, 04:40:39 PM EDT
New Nope again
Disagree.

I don't filter what I say to my boss.
I don't filter what I say to HIS boss, the CIO.
I don't filter what I say to HIS boss, the CEO.

If something broken, I tell them.

But I don't bitch to other employees.
I don't gossip.
I don't backstab.
But I will openly advocate firing incompetent people
within my own department, and subtly advocate the
same in others. To people who can make the decision.

Nor do I seed dissent. If someone is bitching, I
tell them to document it and send it as an email to their
boss.

I KNOW one of the reasons I am valued to highly is they
can trust me to tell them when something is wrong.

On the other hand, people to bitch to me since I have
no problem working the levels above me to get something
done.
New sometimes you think you'll do it for free :-)
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
New Unlike you, I guess I don't need a million dollars
As you well know, I will choose sacrifice a lot to maintain the level of life that I appreciate, and to be able to maintain choices that I have made. Of course when I make such a choice, it is a lock that in time I will find a way to make the choice that I really want.

Beyond that I am not greedy. I currently earn more than I need to. I could easily earn even more - but don't because I appreciate the work environment.

So at present I literally could not be paid enough to be seriously unhappy with my life for a bit. A million is not worth twice what $500,000 is to me, nor is $500,000 worth 5 times $100,000. But $100,000 is worth well more than triple $33,333.33.

Actually that is false. I could be paid enough to be unhappy with my life for a bit. The necessary threshold is enough money that I never have to think about working again. But as long as I have to think about working again, I don't want to leave the workforce (because re-entering is hard), and so increased money doesn't really matter to me.

I guess that I have cheap tastes. :-)

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     DeMotivational Posters - (gdaustin) - (26)
         Wow... - (bepatient)
         bookmarked, ta -NT - (boxley)
         Career suicide - (broomberg) - (22)
             On the other hand... - (FuManChu) - (6)
                 On the other other hand - (broomberg) - (4)
                     ""This is not Borglike.""___OK, now I really want to hear - (Ashton)
                     Demotivation Posters are not about dispair - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                         Some of them are. Depends - (broomberg)
                     You have my support - (Mike)
                 Perfect Example - (broomberg)
             So then.. - (Ashton) - (10)
                 Close - (broomberg) - (9)
                     Just gotta Love 'Biz Darwinism' - (Ashton) - (7)
                         I don't know - (broomberg) - (6)
                             Thanks. - (Ashton) - (4)
                                 You missed something - (broomberg) - (3)
                                     Consideration is 66.17% of acceptance______:-\ufffd - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Nope again - (broomberg)
                                     sometimes you think you'll do it for free :-) -NT - (boxley)
                             Unlike you, I guess I don't need a million dollars - (ben_tilly)
                     PS: what you refer to as "jollies" - (Ashton)
             You tell me... - (gdaustin)
             You're right.... - (gdaustin) - (1)
                 Good - (broomberg)
             so starting a dead pool on the company when RIF's - (boxley)
         I'll Drink to your missing gutsy Poster Boy; so few of those - (Ashton)

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