Post #117,797
9/14/03 7:41:03 PM
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So then..
Submission is the wisest course.
And.. It's OK - because, in a Corp office in Murica '03 They Indeed Own Your Right to express a thought (Unless.. it's Their Thought too) In which case - contrary thought would fall under Firing for Cause\ufffd. As properly It Should.
(Corollary - "notheycan'tfireyouforthat" -Yet- but it will be OK as next, a 'charge' is trumped-up to Get You Outtathere.)
Is this what you just sorta said? I'd rather be Clear about What You Mean, y'know?
Ashton
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Post #117,801
9/14/03 8:05:02 PM
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Close
> Submission is the wisest course.
Do not sneak around doing things. The poster replacement is sneaky. You get no chance to actually change things. That one is a direct fireable, no excuses needed.
If you do it directly, without any constructive engagement, you still SHOULD be fired. Whether or not they need to trump something up. You are a whiner. If you are ALSO a prima donna, and worth a lot of money, then they should keep you, yet isolated so your attitude won't poison others. But real prima donnas don't often whine about being treated poorly by the company. If you are replaceable then you should be replaced. If you are not replaceable, then your boss should be replaced for failing to staff as needed. And then the next guy will either perpetuate the work environment that you find objectionable or fix things. If he keeps it as it was, maybe the old boss wasn't the problem. It is either the total company or YOU. If it is the total company, and you aren't in a position to fix it, get out. If you choose to stay, then work with it to make it better.
If you do it with some constructive engagement, whether with your boss or other levels up, then good luck to you. Maybe you will be a positive influence on your company and the people around you. But you will lose credibility with this type of display. If you skip your boss and go a level up be prepared for war.
So, what is your goal? Momentary jollies at the expense of your boss or the rest of the management chain? Great. Until you are fired and your children are starving.
No kids, no wife, no responsibilities? Have a blast.
Money in the bank and can walk for an extended period? Great. There is a reason this is called "FU money".
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Post #117,808
9/14/03 9:34:32 PM
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Just gotta Love 'Biz Darwinism'
(IIRC - zIWE has 'done' the Social Darwinism shtik, a few eons back)
and the intricate rationalizations via which:
A) the merely offensive is accepted, morphs to B) the intolerable .. gradually C) reaches the deeply intrusive - that which:
Forces one to lie abjectly {and consistently} on all levels of thought.
- no longer merely about the few +points of the shoddily engineered and QC'd product (whether that product be a toy in a box or the mind-fucking end-'product' of YAN dissembling Ad campaign, selling the unnecessary to the suggestible, by any verbal means possible).
OK - a bit clearer now, yet lacking a denouement. (No Wonder! that no one Ever gets the message to an ENRON CIEIO that he's a complete Asshole and Menace to all living things - ethically, intellectually and all other connotations.) Guts: don't leave home with them. Right?
Tell me lastly, then - is there *any* indignity you might next be asked to put in the Company Manual under Our Ethics \ufffd {Hey.. M$'s got one too! Bet Yours has..} which you would:
A) refuse to accept / work under? Period. (Would the PAY Help decide?) B) if ~ < A): find a rationale for Not Noticing Any Implications-of?
Any? . . . (a partial-list would do, just to complete the er calibration of the kinds of crap you poor bastards not only eat - but seem to find Nutritious too: it's pure excrement! / it's a dessert topping! / Learn to Love It as Both.. and Prosper!:-)
Ashton
Crank? assuredly.. But I was able to complete a couple careers without ever facing anything Like the Shit you are implicitly deeming merely.. Normal- And OK! via an undoubtedly current '03 Mindset. Look.. this is Research. OK?
.. and ya really Have to Love/Hate cubicle-dwellers who can laugh at incarceration jokes.. (izzat like the goldfish ridiculing the cockamamie idea that "there's water" around them?)
Oh Caves! wherein hath gone thine Allegorical Sting? :-\ufffd
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Post #117,814
9/14/03 10:13:17 PM
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I don't know
You see it as a massive intrusion. Something that is coercive. Something that you are forced to suffer under.
I see it as a trade.
They give me money, I behave a certain way.
Do I clean toilets? No. Would I for the same pay? For a while.
Do I behave in front of clients? Yup.
Do I piss off other department heads which in turn would get my boss in trouple? Nope.
Am I treated well? Yup.
Do I see other people treated not as well as me? Yup.
Do they contribute as much as me? Not that I can see.
Does it bother me that they are in cubicles and I'm in an office? No.
In my case, I truly like what I do for my job. I'd do most of it for free if I could afford to live otherwise. Coding is fun. Sytem design is fun. Negotiating is Fun.
Sure, I have unreasonable deadlines and things I'd like to change, but all in all I have a good deal.
The more you give, the more you get. It is a trade.
The company values certain things more than others. One of the highest things is values is a harmonious workplace. Without that, nothing else is possible.
You feel there are certain things you don't exchange for pay. I agree with the concept. I won't kill for it. I think. But after that, pretty much everything is negotiable. Certainly the concept of "free speech". No such thing.
They pay for my time. During that time, they pretty much control EVERYTHING I do. They can't cause me pain, nor ignore my bodily functions. Teacher wearing diapers? That crosses the line. Unless they want to quadruple my pay. Then I'd consider it.
I had a counseler who asked a group of people:
What wouldn't you do for a million dollars? Assuming no ramifications other than the memory of the act itself. No jail time.
My answer: Line 'em up, I'll suck'em off. Gimme an UZI and point me in a direction. Whatever you want.
This was the standard answer of most of the people. Those that disagreed would often waffle a while and then come up with situations where they would break their strong moral line. It wasn't money, but there was always a leverage point.
That was before I had kids. Now I'd balk at killing them for the million. But I'd think about it for a few seconds. Maybe a minute for my daughter.
Does that answer your question?
I quit over being put in a cubicle 7 years ago. Would I do it again? No. I'd explain why it was killing my ability to be productive and then negotiate my way into an office. Part of maturing is understanding how to communicate effectively. That does not typically include insulting the person you are talking to.
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Post #117,817
9/14/03 11:39:03 PM
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Thanks.
Yours goes in the honest reply undiluted with BS table. (That one's so short it doesn't even need to be indexed. I store it in braille on the world's second British Guiana One Cent magenta postage stamp. ;-) Oh: Each one from this list gets a footnote in The Thesis, should I ever feel the need for more academic Assurances I Am Greater Than Most.
I'll confess to the 'Don't Know' on lots of the Catch 22 questions out there, too.
(And while "walking onin others' moccasins and all" ever applies -- I see that I'd settle for / have settled for less$ and more-Moi than some of the examples suggested.) I've grown accustomed to needing very few of the Things To Die For, an actual surprise! {how easily I adapted} when I made a premeditated choice to trade My-time+neurons for Theirs.
With kids, of course all equations must become abnormalized - a factor I Know I cannot simulate even as a what-if. Prolly I'd Kill for {some} kids {not at all necessarily.. My-sperm spawned, either} - I've never pretended to religio-pacifism, or any of the other Manual-prescribed Goodnesses conjured up by Cloaked Crusaders for Conformity. {just more Job Security - that}
So, I guess mine is an easier course than yours + kids, and I have no pious judgments to pronounce (and if I did: I'd hope to be massively murdered, rhetorically at least ;-) After all - at zIWE: its the soich fer Truth what Counts!
Yours for a culture possessed of fewer Wants, less satisfiction with thing-collection and more Appreciation for humans generally -- (Oh.. and.. On Time, screw the Budget == while we still Can make that choice, natch.)
I Who Be
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Post #117,832
9/15/03 8:09:46 AM
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You missed something
I didn't say I'd kill for them. I said I'd consider killing them.
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Post #117,872
9/15/03 3:55:58 PM
9/15/03 4:40:39 PM
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Consideration is 66.17% of acceptance______:-\ufffd
BTW on reflection - {it's even Scarier} Your brief but comprehensive essay makes clearest why it IS that none of the massive techno- and even socio- reasoning re the Mega-kluge which Doze is.. ever penetrates. In an atmosphere such as you describe, the 'verity' of ANY remark or reply is, in time - automatically filtered to perfection into the what 'they' wish to hear today bin (at least - among all those who stay for a time). If I read with comprehension.
Were I writing a Discworld clone, I could use your description of Bizness in Ankh-Morpork as a veritable storyboard backbone for describing the fear-factor which inhibits honest communication.. (and it does no 'good' that, via subtle and gradual innuendo, one might.. get across a small fraction of a Large idea. With trepidation, palpable Risk.)
ie. No Wonder! US-bizness Sucks Galaxy-sized spiked objects (and for that matter -- any other places that rote emulate Our Style). No Wonder either.. the depression, the ennui.. the fucking earned cynicism culminating in some variety of disgust - whenever some unfortunate near-Original thinker might find self amidst such regimented fluff.
Poor {naive} Bastard! Get. Out. and Live... *anywhere else*. Or shrivel down, to fit inside that Armani brain-armor + Power Leash around that constricted vulnerable neck.
Great sociology stuff! At least I finally grok to fullness the utter futility of what used to be called dialogue; it's all Monologue signifying nada, at baby-talk level of both sincerity and content. [No doubt there are a few exceptions.. At your level of tentative-acceptance, for possessing techno competence they Know they need: maybe you get an exemption from some of the affectations? Hope so.] But then.. you get to close a real door! too
Mr. Lay sez, "Gosh! nobody TOLD me.." and everyone Rolls Eyes. But.. WTF WOULD 'tell' Shark #1 that Unpleasant Thought #1 .. such a tangled web we weave when first we build a bizness on deceit -but please to call it- Team Spirit cha. cha. ca. ca. A Petri dish for the likes of Billy et al - who, like bin-Laden, perfectly Understand "how it Is that We Are.. here": Shark-meat.
{Gawd} Am I Glad: I Missed This !!! as in fucking {Whew!} Causes me to feel even-Freer! by comparison, y'know? So - It's an even Better Day! {out here} :-) :-)
Thanks again for the horrifying Survival Primer,
Ashton
{Whew} {Aaahhhhhh}
Edit: add comments
Edited by Ashton
Sept. 15, 2003, 04:40:39 PM EDT
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Post #117,898
9/15/03 7:51:11 PM
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Nope again
Disagree.
I don't filter what I say to my boss. I don't filter what I say to HIS boss, the CIO. I don't filter what I say to HIS boss, the CEO.
If something broken, I tell them.
But I don't bitch to other employees. I don't gossip. I don't backstab. But I will openly advocate firing incompetent people within my own department, and subtly advocate the same in others. To people who can make the decision.
Nor do I seed dissent. If someone is bitching, I tell them to document it and send it as an email to their boss.
I KNOW one of the reasons I am valued to highly is they can trust me to tell them when something is wrong.
On the other hand, people to bitch to me since I have no problem working the levels above me to get something done.
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Post #117,923
9/16/03 8:32:12 AM
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sometimes you think you'll do it for free :-)
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #118,371
9/21/03 2:57:50 PM
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Unlike you, I guess I don't need a million dollars
As you well know, I will choose sacrifice a lot to maintain the level of life that I appreciate, and to be able to maintain choices that I have made. Of course when I make such a choice, it is a lock that in time I will find a way to make the choice that I really want.
Beyond that I am not greedy. I currently earn more than I need to. I could easily earn even more - but don't because I appreciate the work environment.
So at present I literally could not be paid enough to be seriously unhappy with my life for a bit. A million is not worth twice what $500,000 is to me, nor is $500,000 worth 5 times $100,000. But $100,000 is worth well more than triple $33,333.33.
Actually that is false. I could be paid enough to be unhappy with my life for a bit. The necessary threshold is enough money that I never have to think about working again. But as long as I have to think about working again, I don't want to leave the workforce (because re-entering is hard), and so increased money doesn't really matter to me.
I guess that I have cheap tastes. :-)
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #117,811
9/14/03 9:56:48 PM
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PS: what you refer to as "jollies"
describes precisely.. that humour.. which always and everywhere signifies - The last refuge of a rational mind, surrounded by closed-doors and amid minds such as must generate -
An inhuman and inhumane oppressive environment wherever found: in home, church, school, government, medical 'association/monopoly', Dictatorship.. ie Anywhere!
You smarl that away in your (undoubtedly skilled) choice of words.
I am appalled at your overt acceptance? nay - applause!
Ashton not easily appalled during the Shrub Cabal's tenure
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