Post #116,878
9/6/03 1:03:15 PM
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Home is no place for a school (commentary)
Since I know there is a few home schoolers about I thought you might find it interesting [link|http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030903/5464075s.htm|http://www.usatoday....0903/5464075s.htm] The popularity of home schooling, while not significant in terms of the number of children involved, is attracting growing attention from the media, which create the impression that a ''movement'' is underway. Movement or not, there are compelling reasons to oppose home teaching both for the sake of the children involved and for society. I suspect that for every David Koresh home schooler there is a dozen kids too bright to attend regular classes tht would be bored into dronehood by attending public schools. thanx, bill
"You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
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Post #116,886
9/6/03 1:20:05 PM
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The guy is a bonehead.
Multiple studies have shown (and my own personal experience has confirmed) that home schooled kids are in general better behaved, better socialized, and better educated than publicly schooled kids.
His email address is now off to several homeschooling groups. Thanks for playing, Mr. Evans, drive through.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #116,888
9/6/03 1:22:57 PM
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Re: The guy is a bonehead.
Could be just a function of "caring". You and wife care. Family members care. When I was a kid, I think my teachers cared. Kids know who cares.
-drl
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Post #116,894
9/6/03 1:46:39 PM
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Interesting quote
The isolation implicit in home teaching is anathema to socialization and citizenship. It is a rejection of community and makes the home-schooler the captive of the orthodoxies of the parents.
Isn't that the ultimate goal of parents? To create offspring that believe as they do? But what he is saying is that the school (which school, which teacher, which random occurrence) should have a higher right to impart it's orthodoxies. Jeez. Why don't you just take away kids from the parents that don't share your religious belief!
I agree with him that not anyone can teach. So what? Not anyone can parent either. When dealing with the issue of parental control over their children, unless there is a smoking gun it is to be left alone. The other side is way too slippery to deal with.
Note: Most people I know who are teaching their kids at home are doing it for religious reasons, not educational. I expect these kids to be as dumb and narrowmindedly bigoted as their parents. This is not a good thing. But it is better than granting the state total control at such a level.
If the kids know enough at the end of the process to get a GED, so be it. If not, there are plenty of kids that went to the sacred high schools he is talking about that wouldn't pass the test either.
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Post #116,897
9/6/03 2:21:04 PM
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Pretty much what I told him in an email.
Not to mention that "the isolation implicit in home teaching" is an ignorant misconception. Home schooled kids have a much better sense of community than those in public schools. How similar to our real society are the artificial same-age groups of public classrooms? Does he work in a place where everyone is the same age he is?
I suspect he has a bone to pick with fundamentalist home schoolers. But by tarring everyone with the same brush, he's creating a damaging misconception. This kind of witch-burning is hard on those of us who need to home school our kids to keep them sane, by causing the passage of ill-conceived laws that prevent us from giving our kids the education they need.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #116,920
9/6/03 7:10:10 PM
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Re: Pretty much what I told him in an email.
The Commies say shit like that. Collectivism - how many rants from me on the issue? And I'm crazy?
-drl
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Post #116,945
9/6/03 11:38:05 PM
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I think I will email him, too.
Let me read the article and get the address.
He really does sound like an idiot.
I want to ask him what he proposes to do with my eight year old (just turned 8), who read a 900 page Harry Potter novel in just 2 weeks this summer?
Hell, I'm not sure I could do it. He constantly asks for harder and harder work. The teacher appeases him by letting him "read" when he's done. He's got 3 more years in the public elementary school, and he may just read every "decent" novel in the library before he gets done with 5th grade. He checked out 3 more books from the public libary today, in addition to the 2 (that's the limit) he has from the school library. Tom Sawyer (I think he's ready), Fudge A Mania, and a book of poems.
The funny part is that he's doing 2x2 digit multiplication correctly, adding 2 and 3 digit numbers in his head, learning primes and division, and they don't even consider him "gifted and talented". Apparently, you need to be a space cadet (abstract thinker) to qualify.
My 1st grade daughter probably qualifies. She's not nearly as far along as my son was in first grade, but she has one HELL of an imagination. She can concoct just about any story (lost and gone forever fairy was one) to attempt to explain her behavior. But, you know, she isn't doing to bad either, Magic School Bus, Junie B Jones. She reads Doctor Suess with no problem. Way beyond See Spot Run. We need to work on her math. Be she's starting to win at Math Blaster 1st/2nd grade at home, so maybe we'll get there soon.
But, who am I to question the "all power" educational establishment?
Glen Austin
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Post #116,951
9/7/03 1:11:03 AM
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My e-mail...
Dennis,
I really beg to differ with the majority of point about home schooling in your USA Today article.
I currently have my children in public school, but in many cases, the state's desire to "average" children is preventing my child from getting the best education he could get.
Let me tell you about my 3rd grader. He just turned 8. He's read all 5 Harry Potter books. He read the new 900 page one, Order of the Phoenix, in 2 weeks this summer, after he got it for his birthday. He does 2x2 multiplication on paper, adds 2 and 3 digit numbers in his head. Most of the time, he's bored at school.
The public school will only let him check out 2 library books at a time, so we got him 3 more at the public library today, Tom Sawyer, Fudge 'A Mania, and a book of poems. He'll have all 5 read in 2 weeks.
Yet, the "public school" system considers him to be "smart", but not "gifted and talented".
The reason I disagree so much with your attack on "home schooling", is that we are very active in all 3 of our children's education. If my wife had the temperment, or we had the money, we would home school our kids.
We "home schooled" our children before they entered public school. My 3 year old will be reading when he starts kindergarten. We "home school" our children on nights and weekends. We use every life experience as an opportunity to teach them something.
My problem with public schools, and academics like you, is that you want to set policy and "standardize", you want to make sure that a standard history, science, etc. curriculum is taught and you preach about tolerance and diversity, when you have no tolerance for anyone who might decide to teach their children multiple "theories" of how the world and universe began. You refuse to even allow a biblical view as even a possibility, then teach evolution of the species as FACT.
As my children age, I fully intend to be involved in their science, pre-calc, calculus, biology and chemistry as they enter middle school and even high school. I'll teach them things you can't even begin to teach in a public school, because of safety and legal reasons. My personal high school chemistry experience, in 1981, was that the school could not allow me to mix any chemical that I could possibly injure myself with. No acids, no chlorine. I learned about chlorine as a teenager by adding it to the swimming pool at home. I learned by reading the directions and receiving training about how dangerous it was. And, I'm sure the public system hasn't changed much, since I was in high school. The students now, probably do even less.
"Can there be anything more important to each child and thus to our democratic society than to develop virtues and values such as respect for others, the ability to communicate and collaborate and an openness to diversity and new ideas? Such virtues and values cannot be accessed on the Internet. "
I completely disagree with this statement. If there were any tool that CAN teach virtues and values, it IS the Internet. Why? Because my son has no idea (without a picture), whether the author of an article was white or black, or even hispanic. My son, researched Martin Luther King's involvement in the Memphis garbage worker's strike and his involvement in the Rosa Parks bus boycott. He knows more about it than I do.
I interact with several people on a computer chat board. I really have no idea if they are black, or white, or yellow, or green. That's the beauty of the Internet. Watch the recent movie, "Bringin' Down The House", and you'll get a taste of what I'm talking about.
Even though we're a "white" family, we listen to the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir. We watch movies with Queen Latifa. We listen to rap (but not gangsta' rap). He researched Martin Luther King from the Internet, with our help.
My son wants to "be" Martin Luther King, when the school has it's patriotic play in the spring. He won't be able to "be" Martin Luther King. Can you guess why? Well, he's white.
"The isolation implicit in home teaching is anathema to socialization and citizenship. It is a rejection of community and makes the home-schooler the captive of the orthodoxies of the parents. "
I disagree with this statement, also. The FIRST place socialization and citizenship SHOULD be taught is in the home. My eight year old has two siblings. He learns about three times the lessons he learns at school at home about socialization. Why? Because he will try a lot of behaviors at home that he won't attempt at school. He is learning how to interact with these other two siblings as a citizen in the context of authority (parents). He already has a good idea of what rules he can bend, and which ones he HAS to follow. By interacting with different age groups (instead of all his own age at school), he learns that people of different ages are at different developmental capabilities. He knows that even if he doesn't like these "younger" people, he still has to respect authority. He is learning how to lead his siblings, under the context of authority.
I agree that children in older age groups, teenagers, for example, need more social interaction than the home. But children below 9 years of age need the close social context of home and values and a balance of love and authority, to grow and flourish. This balance of love and control allows them to test new theories, but still have a loving parent or authority figure to run back to, when the theory doesn't work or make sense.
Finally, I completely disagree that the same-age socialization that occurs at the middle and early high school age is productive to the development of good citizens within society. The rebellion of the baby boomer generation in the 1960's grew out of a post WW-II desire to educate all children in "age appropriate" settings. This created the spirit of rebellion, which the advent of Rock 'N Roll music, radio, and the media industry were able to leverage into creating the moral relativism, rebellious, and age-discriminatory culture we have today. Teenagers rejected the morality of their parents, and attempted to implement their own "generational" morality. Every teenage generation since the creation of age-specific schooling has attempted to reject the values of the "elder" generation. And it will only get worse, as we continue to group people by age, instead of teaching people that the advice of people in all phases of life (especially our elders) is valuable.
Home is the first place you learn social skills. Then, you attempt to use those models in the context of a school situation. However, many societies flourished for centuries under a model where there was no "school" context, but teenagers applied what they learned at home to the "real" world as apprentices, under the leadership of responsible adults.
Dennis, I would like to believe that you have an open mind. I would like to believe that you are more than simply a "shill" for the educational institutions that you teach for, and belong to. I sincerely hope that my e-mail will challenge your educational assumptions, and begin to think of education in a different context. I would like you to believe that children are taught as much at home, or IRL (In Real Life) as they are at a public school. I agree that there are a small minority of extemists in our culture that want to teach their children things that will make them anti-social in life. But these people exist in all cultures, and the diversity of the United States makes those extremists even more rare than, for example in the Middle East.
However, your attempt to brush all "home schools" as attempts to teach children extreme views is in very poor taste, and is mean-spirited. Please reconsider your views.
Glen Austin Caring Parent Frisco, Texas
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Post #117,198
9/9/03 9:59:47 AM
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You missed another point
Can there be anything more important to each child and thus to our democratic society than to develop virtues and values such as respect for others, the ability to communicate and collaborate and an openness to diversity and new ideas? More important? Maybe not. But equally important might be things like basic math and reading skills. Oh, and don't forget critical thinking. Of course that would mean re-introducing something that has been systematically removed from the system over tens of decades. As a secondary point, if you actually succeeded in teaching critical thinking skills, you might expect kids to figure out the value of communication and collaboration on their own.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #117,286
9/9/03 7:36:34 PM
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Yes, it is subversive to the Farmily Valuez
of the current biz-besotted ad-cacophony era of dissembling in all areas of human interest.
How -possibly- then, could this be a Bad Thing\ufffd ???
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Post #116,956
9/7/03 2:45:00 AM
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Teaching methods stultify in a system.
My dayjob is programming an academic management system. The goal our little company has with it is to make it possible and easy for a school to provide and fully track free-form, self-paced academic learning. We aren't there yet - much of the road is unmapped but we can see over the next hill, so to speak. :-)
Along the way, we've discovered some things about structured learning. The style of "give the kid a mark at the end of the year" is tempting, but oh so inaccurate. We have (access to) studies that show that there are half a dozen different ways to learn and evaluate learning and schools use just one or two of them. This is why you get kids that seem to do poorly in school but actually understand the work: put very simply, formal exams just don't work for them.
Current state-of-the-art involves tracking Outcomes and Indicators within a syllabus. At the end of the Strand, you can draw a graph of a student's progress and get a much more accurate picture of what they have learned than a mere mark. You can also get a graph of how well the teacher is teaching. This is called "Criteron Reference". Unfortunately, this is an insane amount of extra paperwork for a teacher - unless you can computerise it somehow. That's where we are now.
Interestingly, all our clients are private (i.e. non-government) schools. Why is this? Well, the teachers union is against changing the academic system in anyway that means longer hours for their members. So the government schools use marks - "Normative Reference" it's called - because they know how to do those and they've been doing them for years. I hear our State Department of Education wants to change that, but they haven't found a way to computerise Criteron Reference. Yet. They've told us we're by far the closest to their vision, but things move slowly in government.
Wade.
Is it enough to love Is it enough to breathe Somebody rip my heart out And leave me here to bleed
| | Is it enough to die Somebody save my life I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #116,896
9/6/03 2:15:04 PM
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Home School vs. Public School
At a Home School the student learns at his/her own pace and gets special attention and direction. At a public school the class gets taught at the teacher's pace which may be too slow or too fast for some students and they cannot give special attention or direction to every student. Usually public schools are understaffed and have too many kids in a class, some get left behind, others get bored.
My son is going to a private school, and I will help him with his homework and try to teach him what I know from when I went to school, what I can remember anyway. I don't think I am qualified to home school him. So far he scored 100% on the parents as teachers program and got top marks in his pre-school. He just started Pre-Kindergarden at a Catholic school and already the teacher is sending home notes about how good he is.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #116,898
9/6/03 3:31:09 PM
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Sent to USA Today as well:
In response to the article "Home is no place for school" by Dennis L. Evans, while Mr. Evans is entitled to his opinion, his opinion is dangerous, ignorant, and misguided.
When Mr. Evans states, "while not significant in terms of the number of children involved," he is incorrect. There were approximately 1.2 million home schooled children in the nation in 1996 (Ray 1997), comparable to the public school populations of the states of Georgia or New Jersey, which have the 9th and 10th largest public school populations nationwide respectively.
Mr. Evans also asserts, "Research on student achievement overwhelmingly supports the ''common-sense'' logic that the most important factor affecting student learning is teacher competency. While some parents may be competent to teach very young children, that competence will wane in more advanced grades as the content and complexity increases." This is misdirection and incorrect. In a nationwide study of 5,402 home school students, research found that home schooled children on average scored 30 percentile points higher than the public school average in every subject area. Additionally, home schooled children on average scored in the 67th percentile on the SAT, compared to the 50th percentile on average for public school children. (Ray 1997) As an example, home schooled children had nearly double the acceptance rate at Stanford in 1999 than did publicly schooled children (The Stanford Daily, Feb. 22, 2000).
Finally, Mr. Evans postulates, "The isolation implicit in home teaching is anathema to socialization and citizenship. It is a rejection of community and makes the home-schooler the captive of the orthodoxies of the parents." This is incorrect. Home schooled children have significantly fewer behavioral problems than publicly schooled children (Shyers, 1992). Private and home schooled children are also more involved in civic life than those schooled in public schools (Smith, Skikkink 1999).
Mr. Evans is dangerously out of touch with the true state of affairs of education in America today. Uninformed opinions such as his encourage the drafting of onerous laws preventing or seriouly impeding the practice of home schooling.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #116,907
9/6/03 5:19:59 PM
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{chortle} - a 'Box' of Gelignite\ufffd__sputtering fuze attached
Believe this is a topic likely doomed to be treated as 'incisively' as -say- abortion rights, that inherently Fundamentalist religio-chestnut: at root, entirely about not-trusting Others to possess as much Reverence-for-'life' cha cha cha as.. *My* Sanctimonious Self + This Gun I'll Use.
That said, once again, a brief IWE thread hits most of the bases I can see; Bravo! fellow humble-genii. {sigh} Boilin the frogs again, Msgr. Ox?
It does seem that a major impetus for dissing "home schooling" by the under-investigating and overly-mouthing - derives from just that Fear of the effects of possibly increasing the % of Terminally Dogma-besotted within the vox-populi. (And it is about the 'vox' part IMhO, as the noise level/populi is measurably disproportionate, in my Board Certified nose count.) Not an irrational Fear either, I'd think -- just not one amenable to any relief via any 'statute' - cf. Prohibition re enforced ""morality"".
So then, wouldn't one expect! an also garbling of the manifestly most compelling Other reasons for home schooling, including, say -Scholarship- in so patently anti-intellectual a place as this? Doomed.. then, to much heat, little light and lots of slogans: A Gross Attractor for politico-blab of the most insidious kind - unnecessarily divisive and begging to be dumbed-down in true Murican ironical ways.
I mean.. just look at the Govmint-Fear card combined with the Let Bizness Do [Everything] 'cause they're so darn Efficient' (sub agenda: reserve the public schools as caretaker trainers for the shit-work folks as pick our asparagus, clean up apartments after messy suicides and remain as invisible to the Gated-Communes as possible).
And that little chestnut, Let Bizness [and here too: parochial schools] Do It With Advertainment, Video-1 Style derives I expect, from a confluence of some pop myths, and relies heavily upon the gutless ennui du jour:
A) Muricans generally.. having given-up any idea of an informed citizenry actually electing 'Government' - and other Constitutional prescriptions we mouth but don't follow. Muricans not caring a lot when these are circumvented. (Just a few.. care and try to 'do'; the most whingle - but just during commercials..)
B) Many folks believing deep-down that Corporate may Never be dislodged in any next - as the de facto Electors, purchasers of the 3 Branches and now, of the Corporate Fourth Estate (further consolidation of the latter IS a current Corp-sponsored activity re the FCC brouhaha, IIRC. If this plan is defeated now (?) it'll Be Baaack) Control of propaganda is essential for preserving the perks of the 0.1% leading the 5% who want perpetually, ever More Power. As -
Surely the Neoconmen exist only via such an inept populace, uninformed and determinedly resistant to becoming informed; utterly disdainful of ever even trying to participate, for all those other toy-filled distractions created by Corp agglomerates, for just that Purpose. What does PNAC say about 'home schooling" ? (And, is there a single non-Repo in that hoary bunch, anywhere?)
C) The Bizness angle ('efficiency' - as in, deregulation of Energy production! - still a biggie on lots of agendas) - may be counted on for the final muddling of this issue. And when an Econ major cum MBA talks about Efficiency: watch your work hours increase, your perks decrease as your cubicle shrinks and co-payments rise (while Biz Management orders more Windoze). Anybody here seen anything like this?
Hmmm - US Schools on the HMO Plan - - - For Profit. With Jesus as Faith-based Initiative In Action. Love. It.
Hee hee - Box wins today's Hornet Nest Whacking Award with crossed dead olive branches rampant upon a purple field of mouldering syllogisms.
Carri-on :-\ufffd
Please, Kurt V. A New Book, huh?
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Post #116,919
9/6/03 7:06:22 PM
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Gotta be a paid NEA shill.
----- Steve
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Post #117,023
9/8/03 8:14:10 AM
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And an arse is no place for a head, but there he is
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Post #117,025
9/8/03 8:20:34 AM
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My, my, my - the isolation!
My wife just had a pleasure to talk to the oldest girl in a family of 6 kids. They are all home schooled, and boy, she must feel isolated :)
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #117,026
9/8/03 8:55:15 AM
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The problem with homeschooling...
...is that you don't get enough hands-on experience of what unutterable arses other people can be.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #117,128
9/8/03 6:53:50 PM
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There's a ready solution for this of course...
...have them meet you.... \r\n\r\n Seriously, though, I think this is a merited criticism. I sometimes think that one of the better lessons I took from working with the large, faceless beaurocacy of the University of California was...working with large faceless beaurocracies. \r\n\r\n That and to never date Psych majors....
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #117,136
9/8/03 10:38:33 PM
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ICLRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #117135 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=117135|ICLRPD]
----------------------------------------- It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why? Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand. Mike Royko
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