Post #116,744
9/5/03 10:34:29 AM
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Dude, I know more about these things than you do.
Both the facts and the feelings. I've been there. (And I've learned. Not everyone who's been there has learned, but I've both been there and learned.) I've seen exactly what the aftermath of senseless violence can do to people who choose the wrong way of dealing with it. All you seem to know is the wrong way of dealing with it. So get off your high horse. I have the habit of choosing the right way of dealing with it, and if that has your panties in a bunch, that's your problem.
I don't just *think* we're more admired now. I *know* it, because I see [link|http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/04/wun04.xml|the evidence]. I don't think you even know how to recognise the evidence, because you don't know what real admiration is. I doubt you've ever encountered the genuine article. Odds are you conflate admiration with some shallow high school notion of popularity.
Here's a clue: when those who have long wished you ill are suddenly acting very upset, and your longtime friends are willing [link|http://www.thankyoutony.com/|to go out on a limb for you], that means you've gone way up in everyone's estimation.
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DEAL WITH IT.
Americans: a pack, not a herd.
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #116,748
9/5/03 11:00:33 AM
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You've been there?
So far all your claims have been just wasted bandwidth.
Get specific. Give examples. Back up your claims.
You allude to having experience senseless violence - what/where/when.
You stated "assisted in bringing down Saddam" - how/when/where.
"Me too" doesn't automatically generate compassion/sympathy until the "Me too" is explained/detailed.
"I am/I did" claims also need to be substantiated.
Your methods are similar to the WWII antiaircraft defense. But up enough flack and you're bound to hit something.
Before I take someone seriously, I want to "know" them. Once upon a time, I actually read your posts and contemplated. But now you've made so many claims that I don't know what I can believe in your posts. You're bluff has been called many times but you refuse to show. You just fold and go on to another game (post).
One more time, back up your statements.
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Post #117,223
9/9/03 12:14:59 PM
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Yeah, I know exactly what you want.
And you're not getting it. Instead, I'm giving you what you requested:
As I have stated before on these fora, for you of the short memory, I grew up in several colonies of South Boston, surrounded by the most vicious and stupid sort of street thugs. A dysfunctional, chronic failure of a culture from an island off the coast of Europe, transplanted to the New World together with all the bad habits that made them miserable in the first place. Meanwhile, I was getting a lot of what is now called multiculturalism and political correctness rammed down my throat in the public school system, but being surrounded by the Southie Irish was a constant refutation of all that bullshit.
(Oh, and I also got Winesburg and Babbitt rammed down my throat by an English teacher, who, shall we say, had some issues, and who was determined to give all her students issues as well. Good gawd, early 20th century anti-Americans are freaking BORING. I think it's the sheer pedantic *pettiness* of their contempt for the middle class. Reeks of petulant elitism, it does. She also made us read the Crucible, which wasn't half bad, but she kept going on about the witch angle. You'd think she'd have focussed on the McCarthy allegory angle, but no, she seemed more pissed about the killing witches aspect of it for some reason. It's like she took it personally.)
I used to have siblings. They didn't survive. They got killed. No particular reason. They just got killed. Stabbed, corpses dumped, and no one would talk to the police. Me, I was a little more lucky and a lot more wary, and so I didn't get killed. As soon as I came of age, I got the hell out of there.
But it's a small world, and I was too close to the destruction of the WTC for comfort. Some of my relatives - from the side of the family that didn't live among street gangs, and were thus still alive - were directly under that dust plume. People I knew were in those towers and never came out.
It seems that getting the hell out only works up to a point. So much for conflict avoidance and isolationism. There's no way off this planet, so we have to make a stand here on Earth.
So now I'm all pacifist and depressed... not. Depression is a symptom of futility. Fuck futility. Especially pacifism. My anger doesn't turn inward.
And I've got nothing to prove to the pissant chorus.
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DEAL WITH IT.
Americans: a pack, not a herd.
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #117,232
9/9/03 12:57:34 PM
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Thank you
I used to have siblings. They didn't survive. They got killed. No particular reason. They just got killed. Stabbed, corpses dumped, and no one would talk to the police. Me, I was a little more lucky and a lot more wary, and so I didn't get killed. As soon as I came of age, I got the hell out of there. My condolences. I know from personal experience what it's like to lose family members. But it's a small world, and I was too close to the destruction of the WTC for comfort. Some of my relatives - from the side of the family that didn't live among street gangs, and were thus still alive - were directly under that dust plume. People I knew were in those towers and never came out. Once again, my condolences. I also know what it's like to lose friends and/or acquaintences. It seems that getting the hell out only works up to a point. So much for conflict avoidance and isolationism. There's no way off this planet, so we have to make a stand here on Earth.
So now I'm all pacifist and depressed... not. Depression is a symptom of futility. Fuck futility. Especially pacifism. My anger doesn't turn inward. I also happen to agree with you here. Except... Bush misled and/or lied to us. All of his pre-war stated reasons for attacking Iraq have been shown to be false. Would the American public accepted going to war, sacrificing our troops and money, because "Saddam was evil"? Was Saddam evil? I think so. Should the U.S. foreign policy be "If we think you're evil, we can attack at will"? I don't think so. Pacifism and isolationism may not work. But destroying your homebase economy in an attempt to fix the evils of the world also will not work. It will only cause resentment, anger, frustration and retaliation amongst the multitude. What's the answer? I don't know. I don't have all the necessary information. I do believe the the current administration is completely wrong in thier handling of world affairs. We have surrendered many freedoms for the illusion of security. We have squandered the goodwill of the other nations by the unprovoked attack on Iraq. And now we are told that it will cost another 87 BILLION dollars. I'm not a Left-wing liberal. Nor am I a Right-wing conservative. I happen to fit somewhere in the middle. I grew up solidly in the lower class. My first paycheck out of HS (at $2.00/hr) netted me more than my father made when he was alive. And my dad was raising a family of 9. I did 21 years in the Army. Saw many things around the world. And I saw how American presidents were perceived by other countries. And how Americans were perceived my other nationalities. I've been to Africa to deliver funds for a village school and got to see first-hand an out pouring of gratitude. I sense a deep anger in your post. I understand the rational for that anger. I appreciate your feelings of wanting to help the helpless, protect the weak, and right all wrongs. However, we are still governed by rules, regulations and laws. Vigilantism went out with the Wild Wild West. We have to abide by the laws of the nation, and live in the arena of world opinion. Do I wish we could solve all the worlds ills? Yes. Should we do it by force and against the wishes of the rest of the world? Nope.
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Post #117,297
9/9/03 10:30:01 PM
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OK, it's a start
At least you begin to sound less mechanical thus more human. Since this is a rare effort to do so here - I acknowledge and respect the difference.
Having (mostly..) escaped no less an absurd environment as you did not (and via no personal attributes - merely via those of a creative parent) I have no trouble imagining the effects of not-escaping. That's not ever the same thing as living them, we may agree. Still, what one flees from - says little about what towards.
Nastiness and brutishness is the province of increasing numbers of Muricans nowadays; we see this by the nastiness and dehumanization of the words and the death of common courtesy. See it by the Tee Vee stories on the nightly and by the prevalence in our 'entertainment': of 'action'=ugly violent stories, in all media. These are not new conditions, and we can hardly gauge the trend of now VS before - merely for there being more frequent specific attention now. Chicken?/Egg?
(Simplistic action material sells ad-time on the networks. Why else would this newsfotainment rate a time slot, in a Corporate mind?)
That said, I can begin to believe that your fulminations are about other experiences than were those of my Gramma - whose style you unwittingly? emulate. But she never lived an immersion within the cultures which she disdained / all by rote and from simplistic hearsay. She lacked the wit to question, ever to see the emotional manipulations behind the dehumanizing rhetoric of the terminally bitter.
I'd really like.. to believe that this is more a tactical error on your part than - a terminal inability to comprehend the effects of the posture taken by [those whose actions you regularly attempt to explain and defend].
In that regard I second Joe's remarks concerning this admin's utter disdain for the entire tissue of US / world relations; the manner in which one man's bellicose, demonstrably ignorant and irresponsible personality has now created rifts which may require decades to repair. Never mind the details with which we are all familiar.
(Never mind too, the fact that there are many nasty regimes extant - which may not be erased merely whenever One Country wants to impose its Wishfulness to force reeducation. It takes a coalition, however inefficient must be the process of convincing others of the necessity. Else: it's back to the nuclear caves.)
Lastly, while it's a mid-to-low level sport to counter your assertions with that same ridicule as invites the stimulus/response of our long-broken System of political dissembling:
It's as stupid a sport as Elimidate is an inane way for any authentic persons ever to interact; for the entertainment of other (more ignorant than stupid?) people, who dare not become wiser, either.
I doubt we shall ever see the 'world' via very similar filters, as I believe not-much-in your selected Facts with a capital-F nor, at all -- in any idea of an informed person's claiming possession of something dubbed Objective Morality. I'd like to see some sign that you've learned more about bullying than ever to imagine that it can win minds & hearts over to the bully's side.. so far I don't see that you have.
Full experience of the world implies Joy as well as Sorrows, whether Young Werther's or one's own. (And whatever be 'Joy', it appears to have damn little to do with Power, $$ or the scrambling for either illusion.) Some do manage to get beyond those popular but ersatz goals, I note.
Guess we'll see how it goes..
Ashton
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Post #117,303
9/9/03 11:21:06 PM
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Try to direct your anger appropriately.
You've been through a lot. A lot more than I have.
I too lost someone I knew on 9/11 - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=9281|#9281].
You spend a great deal of time explaining your views and working to make others understand. Your web pages are a demonstration of that. If you didn't want others to consider your opinions, you wouldn't go to the trouble.
You clearly don't "suffer fools gladly". You clearly don't mind people getting annoyed with your ripartee.
But you should consider not using so much ad-hominem. You often participate in what might be a lively debate, but too often it degenerates into name-calling. You've got a lot to offer but I think you end up causing people to write you off as a crank because of the way you often resort to name-calling.
Frankly, I enjoy your posts usually. You can turn quite an entertaining phrase quite often, and you're good at finding information to back up your opinions. But your personal attacks on those you disagree with reminds me of ravings of someone from the Spartacus Youth League. You're better than that. You know that people who disagreed with invading Iraq aren't Saddam lovers, or in love with the UN, or whatever. At least I think you do.
If I'm mistaken, then I think you've missed your calling. You should be doing editorial cartoons. Perhaps you could be a right-wind Ted Rall or something. ;-)
Please remember, we're friends in cyberspace here even if we vehemently disagree. Please don't redirect your anger at bin Laden toward the people you converse with.
</soapbox>
Hang in there.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #116,767
9/5/03 12:32:57 PM
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Clue 1: Fear != Admire
bcnu,
Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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