Post #111,205
7/23/03 10:15:57 PM
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Question/rant
Can anyone explain to me why Jessica Lynch is receiving a Purple Heart, A Bronze Star and a POW Medal?
To receive a Purple Heart, you need to be wounded in combat. Wounded is not "drive your truck into a wall." That is "injured" as in "an accident."
The Bronze Star is given for Valor. Getting yourself into a shitty situation and then knocking yourself unconscious while trying to escape is not "valor."
Finally, the POW Medal. Don't you actually have to be a prisoner of war to qualify for this? She was being attended to in a civilian hospital by civilians with no military around.
Just another friggin' photo op. I feel sorry for her, but she doesn't deserve the kind of honors that have been bestowed to John McCain, Bob Kerry, Bob Dole, etc., for doing much, much more.
lincoln
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Post #111,206
7/23/03 10:24:09 PM
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Re: Question/rant
Nope - wounded is wounded.
She didn't freak out ,and she held her position under stress. Valor enough for me, she was part of a supply brigade, and probably had minimal weapons training.
She was in the care of the enemy, for however long - she was a prisoner.
Any more objections?
-drl
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Post #111,217
7/24/03 2:37:25 AM
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Any effort to stop her leaving?
Yeah, she wasn't in any shape to go anyplace on her own. But doesn't the word "prisoner" imply that somebody is taking steps to prevent you leaving?
Was she under any kind of restraint at all? Was anyone, at any point, specificaly trying to keep the US forces from retreiving her? Trying to keep US forces out of the area as a general thing doesn't count.
If the Iraquis considered her a guest and treated her as such, and attempted to provide her transport back to her unit, and made no attempt to prevent her leaving or others from retreiving her, how does that word apply?
----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug...
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Post #111,229
7/24/03 9:02:07 AM
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Are you serious?
She was captured by forces of the army we were at war with. At that instant she became a POW. Whatever her later situation, she was a prisoner. Period.
As for the Purple Heart, I thought the crash she was in was caused by a attack on her convoy by enemy forces. Might be wrong.
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Post #111,240
7/24/03 9:41:51 AM
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Agree, now for the rest of the question
Will the other surviving members of her unit receive the same awards? Don't remember if they were also wounded, but they were also POWs and "held their ground".
As ret mil, I do have a problem with the Bronze Star. That may be a little too much, but I haven't seen the write up, so it's just speculation on my part.
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Post #111,247
7/24/03 10:20:17 AM
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Re: Bronze Star
I'm uneasy about that one myself. What did she do of her own volition to earn it? She may well deserve it. I don't know. Haven't heard why.
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Where were you in 72?
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Post #111,374
7/24/03 10:57:14 PM
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Re: What did she do of her own volition to earn it?
Well, she dutifully has no recollection of the events that might spoil a good story.
[image|/forums/images/warning.png|0|This is sarcasm...||]
Alex
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -- George Bernard Shaw
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Post #111,405
7/25/03 9:08:30 AM
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10 points !!! (as is so often the case :-)
:-)
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Post #111,421
7/25/03 9:55:13 AM
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Not needed
There are levels of decoration for personal initiative and valor.
1) Purple Heart to anyone wounded in confrontation with enemy, for any reason.
2) Bronze Star for fortitude under stress.
3) Silver Star for the former squared.
4) CMH for "above and beyond', like cousin Audie at Holzwir.
I think she deserves her medals.
-drl
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Post #111,502
7/25/03 5:47:52 PM
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Is there a special 'cluster' for dutifully not-remembering?
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Post #111,606
7/26/03 10:18:52 PM
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Lotus blossom?
----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug, sometime you the driver you turn on the windshield washer you keep going.
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Post #111,376
7/24/03 11:17:49 PM
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Yes, I am serious
How is she a prisoner if there is no action to prevent her leaving? As far as I can tell, the only reason they moved her was for medical treatment.
As for the other medals, I don't know the facts well enough to know whether the Bronze Star is deserved. The purple heart is entirely appropriate, no question about it. She was wounded in combat, even if all that hit her was the inside of the vehicle. Most wounds in combat are from shrapnel - and much of that is bits of equipment which have been propelled by weapons, rather than being part of the weapon. The entire vehicle is in that general category. Not only was she wounded in combat, she was wounded as a direct result of enemy fire, not that the Purple Heart technicaly requires that.
----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug...
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Post #111,425
7/25/03 10:08:56 AM
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You entirely missed the point.
At the instant the opposing soldiers took her captive from that wrecked vehicle, *then* she was a POW. What happened after doesn't signify.
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Post #111,242
7/24/03 9:47:53 AM
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Have to share this one (again)
Stop now if you've already heard it. This may be apocryphal, but as with all apocryphies[1] it's plausible.
There was an army cook in Viet Nam. As with most people who cook lots of eggs, he generally cracked them right on the grill surface, two at a time, one in each hand. One morning he had let the grill heat up too long, or had used too much oil, or both. When he cracked the first two eggs, the grease and cracked eggs splashed up into his face. He went to the base medical tent where they flushed his eyes and made sure there were no foreign bits left in them.
Flash forward three months, when the base commander gets his regular shipment of Purple Heart citations to award, and there is one for the cook. No one can figure out why, as no one had put him in for one. Apparently someone higher up the chain of command had seen the doctor's report and submitted him for the citation. What did the report say? "Removed shell fragments from patient's eyes."
[1] Yeah, I made that word up. What are you gonna do about it?
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #111,252
7/24/03 10:47:36 AM
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Trying to escape is valor, no matter how clumsily
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #111,267
7/24/03 11:38:07 AM
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U.S. Army Individual Decorations
[link|http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm|U.S. Army Individual Decorations] 3-13. Bronze Star Medal
a. The Bronze Star Medal was established by Executive Order 9419, 4 February 1944 (superseded by Executive Order 11046, 24 August 1962).
b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star.
d. The Bronze Star Medal may be awarded for meritorious achievement or meritorious service according to the following:
(1) Awards may be made to recognize single acts of merit or meritorious service. The lesser degree than that required for the award of the Legion of Merit must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished with distinction. (2) & (3) pertain to retroactive issuance.
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Post #111,269
7/24/03 11:58:49 AM
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Merit vs. Valor. I see. Thanks.
--
Less Is More. In my book, About Face, I introduce over 50 powerful design axioms. This is one of them.
--Alan Cooper. The Inmates Are Running the Asylum
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Post #111,280
7/24/03 2:34:29 PM
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Re: U.S. Army Individual Decorations... but
I'm gonna have to go on a limb here and say you're _all_ missing an important point. From the previous post: b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party Last time I checked, we invaded Iraq. Wouldn't that make us a "belligerent" party? All decorations are null and void. mx. "I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
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Post #111,281
7/24/03 2:45:38 PM
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Look again
... in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party Note the "or". ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #111,287
7/24/03 3:27:06 PM
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Re: Look again... opposing fouls?
Becomes somewhat of a pointless distinction then, eh? I mean, presumably, even we'd never attack an unarmed nation... would we? (Though given the major disparity in military capabilities, we practically did.)
Not to diminish her experience, but it sets an awfully low standard.
regards
mx.
"I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
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Post #111,306
7/24/03 4:49:45 PM
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It would be interesting
to see the official nomination for the award, read the justification and must important, see WHO submitted it.
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Post #111,386
7/25/03 12:00:48 AM
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heart and POW no prob, rest need cite
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