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New Re: More Questions
bluke: In a MOO system, objects pass messages back and forth, in a FOO system objects execute functions on other objects. It leads to different paradigms and different ways of thinking.

Can you give some concrete examples of the different ways of thinking? You mention distributed systems in your message. Any others?


The ability to capture messages can be very useful. For example, undo/redo can be implemented using this (you trap every message sent and then you can either undo them or redo them quite easily as you have the original message). Logging security can be done with this facility as well.

The other place its shows is in areas like constructing new objects, conditional logic, etc.. In Java, you have a special keyword new and a constructor is called. In Smalltalk, all you do is send a message to the class object to create a new instance, perfectly logical. In Java if then else is a language construct. In Smalltalk it is a message send. When you think in terms of messages, it makes sense to send a message for everything including object creation and conditionals.


bluke: A MOO system cannot be statically typed because an Object in a MOO system can handle any message that it doesn't understand (e.g. not for it's type) in any way that it pleases.

Is this a hard requirement? Can you imagine a static type system that would allow MOO-like constructions? Would type inference (like in Haskell) help?


I am not an expert on type inference or Haskell, but I don't see how it would help. For example how would it handle a proxy object which can take any message and just forwards it somewehere? A static type system would just impose constraints. Of course, using DoesNotUnderstand is not the normal way of doing things in Smalltalk, so type inference might be useful in those other cases.

New Re: More Questions
bluke: The ability to capture messages can be very useful. [undo/redo and logging mentioned]

I agree with the above, however ...

bluke: The other place its shows is in areas like constructing new objects, conditional logic, etc.. [...]

These examples are not so clear to me. Exactly how does the MOO-ness of a language contribute to object construction and conditional logic. For example, it is possible (although tedious) to do condition logic in Java (I've done it). However, most of the tedium would be aleviated by a simple anonymous closure syntax and relaxed type rules. Given those, I'm not sure how a message based system (ie. the ability to reify messages) would contribute.
--
-- Jim Weirich jweirich@one.net [link|http://onestepback.org|http://onestepback.org]
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct,
not tried it." -- Donald Knuth (in a memo to Peter van Emde Boas)
New It relates more to the mindset
In a FOO like language you are calling functions, therefore to call a function like new is not out of synch with the language, in a MOO language where everything is messages then everything is messages including object construction.

Again, this is more related to mindset and feel then anythng concrete.
New In past discussions with Freep...
...one of the things that he talked about was the ability to use the mechanism to do some creative dispatching - specifically a mechanism that emulated multiple-dispatch or a Visitor type scenario.
     Message Object Oriented vs Function Object Oriented - (JimWeirich) - (71)
         It's not so much a Language issue... - (ChrisR) - (28)
             Mind Games - (JimWeirich) - (27)
                 The biggest difference is how one treats the interaction - (ChrisR) - (26)
                     Now a Language Issue again - (JimWeirich) - (25)
                         Is it "missing methods" or "invalid messages" it handles? - (CRConrad) - (23)
                             Both. - (admin) - (22)
                                 Sorry, I don't think you quite understood what I meant. - (CRConrad) - (21)
                                     Needlessly pedantic, IMO. - (admin) - (20)
                                         OK, so why don't we do it that way, then... - (CRConrad) - (8)
                                             Lose the chip... -NT - (admin) - (3)
                                                 OK, bye, then. (Heard anything from Addison, lately?) -NT - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                     Suit yourself. -NT - (admin)
                                                     You can do it (new thread) - (orion)
                                             FOO bad. MOO good. - (ChrisR) - (2)
                                                 Mooooooo. -NT - (admin)
                                                 Re: FOO bad. MOO good. - (JimWeirich)
                                             Re: OK, so why don't we do it that way, then... - (JimWeirich)
                                         Method VS Message - (JimWeirich) - (10)
                                             Sure. -NT - (admin)
                                             Re: Method VS Message - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                                                 Re: Method VS Message - (deSitter) - (7)
                                                     Didn't you finish that smalltalk history doc Todd showed us? - (FuManChu) - (1)
                                                         Re: Didn't you finish that smalltalk history doc Todd showed - (deSitter)
                                                     In theory yes, in practice no - (bluke) - (4)
                                                         You must cheat - but you must not get caught - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                                             Yes exactly - (bluke) - (2)
                                                                 Hmmm sounds as if - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                                     Not *so* clever - (tuberculosis)
                         At that level, it is a language issue... - (ChrisR)
         DoesNotUnderstand - (tuberculosis) - (6)
             Reified Messages - (JimWeirich) - (1)
                 Sounds about right to me -NT - (tuberculosis)
             Re: DoesNotUnderstand - (deSitter) - (3)
                 nil is an object -NT - (admin) - (2)
                     Re: nil is an object - (deSitter) - (1)
                         Re: nil is an object - (bluke)
         ICLRPD - (static)
         It is a fundamental difference - (bluke) - (30)
             More Questions - (JimWeirich) - (9)
                 Re: More Questions - (bluke) - (3)
                     Re: More Questions - (JimWeirich) - (2)
                         It relates more to the mindset - (bluke)
                         In past discussions with Freep... - (ChrisR)
                 Where does polymorphism fit in? - (static) - (1)
                     Polymorphism via inheritance/interface - (ChrisR)
                 Example - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                     Re: Example - (JimWeirich)
                 Statically Typed Smalltalk - (tuberculosis)
             Statically Typed MOO - (JimWeirich) - (19)
                 The other possible avenue - (ChrisR) - (18)
                     Do you know how they do that? - (bluke) - (17)
                         Compiler generates the necessary calls - (ChrisR)
                         AspectJ is code generation - (tuberculosis) - (15)
                             A comment and a question ... - (JimWeirich) - (12)
                                 Not really - (tuberculosis) - (11)
                                     Pushing the limits of Blanchard's Law - (JimWeirich) - (10)
                                         I don't think the basic argument is so much - (ChrisR) - (8)
                                             Re: I don't think the basic argument is so much - (JimWeirich) - (7)
                                                 Should probably let Todd defend his Laws....but.... :-) - (ChrisR) - (6)
                                                     Still sounds arbitrary ... - (JimWeirich) - (5)
                                                         On par with "Eval" - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                                             Well said -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                         No its not - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                             Ok, I get it. - (JimWeirich) - (1)
                                                                 Yep -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                         Oh yeah - (FuManChu)
                             What is your reasoning for this "law"? - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                 OT re: coming to this thread late - (drewk)
         Litmus Test - (JimWeirich) - (1)
             Yes and No - (bluke)
         Interesting comp.lang.smalltalk thread on this - (bluke)

Hey, it's a hard day's work in the pits of Minas Morgul, orking cows all day...
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