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New Toy and scale are not the issues.
Design is the only issue I'm talking about. Not every table has unique elements, because not every Set of objects in the real world has unique elements.

Example: you have 30 tool packages you can rent out to customers, all the same. There is no distinction between them. There never will be a distinction between them. That is the whole point: they are the same in every way. A table which models these 30 tool packages does not need a primary key. You might feel safer with one, but that does not erase the fact that there is no *need* for one. All that matters is that we do not oversell them. A primary key does not assist in this process at all. Would it hurt to have one? Probably not. If you want the overhead, be my guest.

I can just see kindergarten class:
"Now if Jimmy has five apples, and we take away 3 apples.."

"Ooh, ooh, wait! Which three are we taking away?"

"It doesn't matter, just subtract three."

"But which three?"

"It doesn't matter!"

"Oh, it most certainly does. Why don't these apples have barcodes so we can tell them apart? Billy, go get the label maker! Susie, find us a workbench and clamp! Margaret, you start cutting the crystal for the laser...we need a reader..."

Overkill.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New Then you don't need a thirty-line table at all...
...but a numeric variable NumberOfToolSetsRented somewhere, that fluctuates between zero and thirty.

Worst case, you have to have a (one-line) table to keep it in. Then you can just update that table (increase or decrease the value by one) every time a toolset gets rented out or returned... And the way to do that is, of course, by using a stored procedure.

Oh, and if you ever find you only have twentynine toolsets on hand, and want to know *which* customer didn't actually return his as he was supposed to, then what do you do?

Then you wish you'd bar-coded your toolchests and used the ToolChestID value of the barcode as a primary key, that's what do you do.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New Thank you.
bcnu,
Mikem

The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.

- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
New Should I answer?
This is becoming religious and I don't see anyone convincing anyone else. You've all got your methods; use them. I have an extra tool that I can use with or without your blessing. So I'm not going to beat this example to death; it was a bad example from the beginning because it only gains significance if scaled up, which was part of the issue I was trying to avoid. If you can't generalize the concept from the example, then again we go nowhere, and the gain frankly isn't worth it even if one of us happened to convince another.

The only point I WILL make at this juncture, is this:
Then you don't need a thirty-line table at all...but a numeric variable NumberOfToolSetsRented somewhere, that fluctuates between zero and thirty.


Um... get thee behind me? This is, IMO, a far WORSE solution, since you are now hard-coding minute details of the transaction INTO A FREAKING VARIABLE NAME. What was that about scaling up? I give it...six months before such a horrible hack would get taken back out of the code. Make an invoice object with a Qty property, maybe, but NumberOfToolSetsRented is going too far.


I'm gonna go build my own theme park! With Blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the park!
New But, but, a tool of any value has a serial number and they..
are different. Warrantees or support, if any, are tracked by serial number by the manufacturer.

Suppose, on return, your clients substituted a barely functioning tool of the same model for one they rented. How would you know?

Are we talking hammers here? :)
Alex

The tendency to turn human judgements into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world. -- Georgia Harkness in "Conflicts in Religious Thought" (1929)
New In this particular case
Suppose, on return, your clients substituted a barely functioning tool of the same model for one they rented. How would you know?

Are we talking hammers here? :)


We are talking hammers, at my company. So "barely functioning" is no different than "functioning". Components of the toolkits (like hammers, shovels, etc.) get damaged and lost all the time, and that gets noticed and dealt with by humans at the time of restock. The cost of numbering would far exceed any benefit, since the toolkits often get moved from site to site "on the fly", without time to come back to base camp.


I'm gonna go build my own theme park! With Blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the park!
     Have an Access problem - (boxley) - (34)
         The SQL is correct. - (tseliot) - (5)
             run toy data - (tablizer)
             how would I TRIM the above statement? - (boxley) - (3)
                 Try this: - (orion) - (2)
                     your update ran OK, thanks Norm but - (boxley) - (1)
                         Access relationships - (orion)
         Could be a relationship problem - (orion) - (1)
             only relationship, single user -NT - (boxley)
         Well the documentation is misleading? :-) - (ChrisR) - (2)
             the cut and paste was correct - (boxley) - (1)
                 I've changed it in my example - (orion)
         Is "field indexed *with duplicates allowed*" on BOTH tables? - (CRConrad) - (22)
             Re: Is "field indexed *with duplicates allowed*" on BOTH tab - (orion) - (19)
                 The only primary key is on the master table - (boxley) - (2)
                     Re: The only primary key is on the master table - (orion) - (1)
                         the only link is the serial fields - (boxley)
                 That is a major assumption on your part - (tseliot) - (15)
                     Actually, for oce Norm is far more right than wrong; you... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                         We're not disagreeing here. - (tseliot) - (1)
                             Ah... *that* "assumption"! :-) - (CRConrad)
                     ALL tables need PK's. - (mmoffitt) - (11)
                         Sorry; What's an "sp"? - (tseliot) - (2)
                             Probably 'Stored Procedures'.... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                 In Access they are "Queries" - (orion)
                         Are you disagreeing with me? I can't tell. - (tseliot) - (7)
                             Dunno if I disagree. - (mmoffitt) - (6)
                                 Toy and scale are not the issues. - (tseliot) - (5)
                                     Then you don't need a thirty-line table at all... - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                         Thank you. -NT - (mmoffitt)
                                         Should I answer? - (FuManChu)
                                     But, but, a tool of any value has a serial number and they.. - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                         In this particular case - (FuManChu)
             Started with no index on either field - (boxley) - (1)
                 It's probably not a factor in your problem... - (tseliot)

Compatible with our orbiting brain lasers.
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