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New Define a "people"
Being the only group in the area that is as despised as the Jews, refused civil rights in every place and are used a cheap labor then abused, robbed assaulted and killed by their gracious hosts the Lebanese, Syrians Saudis and most recently Iraqi's by definition of their persecution they are an identifiable mass. If you have ever had the pleasure of personally knowing a member of that group you would see differences from the other Arabs around them. The peculiarity of their geopolitical situation demands a state by of and for Palestinians. Whether that should be on the present dirt or adjacent dirt is open to opinion and the future but decency of the human condition demands a state.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

As the Poets have mournfully sung.
Death takes the innocent young,
The rolling in money,
the screamingly funny,
And those who are very well hung.
W.H. Auden
New The decency of the human condition demands...
that they brought up to a level where they are capable of governing themsleves well by means of a state. Preferably one not based on the (currently fashionable in this part of the world) models of either Mussolini or Stalin.

It's gonna be a long hard slog to get them to that point. And just giving them a state now and washing our hands of it - well, I admit it's tempting. Provided that state is surrounded by a security fence, overshadowed by a no-fly zone, and monitored from the air constantly. Then we'd all be safe from the crazy buggers. but if we also want them to safe from themselves and each other, well, that's not so simple.

Yes, they're a defineable group, if you define by how much they're put upon. The same can be said for inmates in a maximum security prison. Except the inmates are less a danger to the rest of us, and at least someone is supposedly trying to rehabilitate them.

What we need is a pre-release center for Palestinians. As each individual proves himself fit for civilized society, we let him out. Maybe find him a job, assign a parole officer. When enough have gotten through this process, we give them some land and some decent civics textbooks (not from the public schools!) and tell them, okay, set up your state if you still want one. Odds are most of them won't think of themselves as "Palestinian" anymore by this time. But they'll still need legal citizenship somewhere.

P.S. If this works with the Palestinians, we can try it with the Tikritis and the Pashtuns. They actually have a real ethnic identity, though, in the worst possible way. We need to help them live their ethnic origins down somehow.
----------------------------------------------------------------
DEAL WITH IT.
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
I helped depose Saddam. Did you?
When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate.
The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Expand Edited by marlowe June 26, 2003, 12:31:36 AM EDT
New you have never met, worked with Palestinians I take it
Their leadership is typical thuggery, the people are just fine. Next time you take a break and make a run for a slurppy in an off brand 711 type joint ponder that the HB1 looking type serving your change might be Palestinian. If you are located on the east coast, chances are that the shopowner often is a Palestinian. I know and have decent terms with several in the area.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

As the Poets have mournfully sung.
Death takes the innocent young,
The rolling in money,
the screamingly funny,
And those who are very well hung.
W.H. Auden
New Met a very nice Palestinian at Java ONE
who was exhibiting, we had a very interesting conversation.
New So what's with the suicide bombing?
And the indoctrination of the children? And those parades with the toddlers swathed in dynamite sticks? They look like people to me. Obnoxious people.

These people have the leadership they're willing to tolerate. And if they haven't got the gumption to even try to overthrow these bastards themselves, maybe they don't want to badly enough.

By way of contrast: at least a couple of ethnic groups in Iraq tried to overthrow Saddam. That's very much to their credit. And if had been up to me, my country would have made sure they succeeded. I sure hope we don't make the same mistake in Iran. Especially since the current regime in Iran is making trouble for everyone in Iraq.

I do not blame the Kurds or the Iraqi Shia for Saddam Hussein. I blame the Tikriti, because they were in on it. I blame the other Sunni Arabs, because they didn't even try to do anything about it. I don't blame the people of Iran for the Ayatollas. Well, maybe some of them. But not all of them. I most certainly do blame the Palestinians for the PLO and Hamas, because they're NOT MAKING A VISIBLE EFFORT TO GET RID OF THEM.

WHERE'S THE SINCERE DISAVOWAL? It's like our resident mouth-foaming Leftists with regard to every single mass murdering thugocrat out there. They won't say a word against any of them without a lot of prodding, and even then it's a grudging "well, we never said we liked Saddam. It's just that we oppose any meaningful effort to get rid of him." A day late and a dollar short.

Sometimes what people don't say speaks volumes. It's the dog that would not bark in the night - except at Uncle Sam.
----------------------------------------------------------------
DEAL WITH IT.
Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas?
I helped depose Saddam. Did you?
When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate.
The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
New There will be a civil war amongst the Palestinians
It has to be on their timing, and after Arafat is dead so within 5 years I hope. Once the civil war happens there will be a clearcut leadership. It might be Hamas, Hezbulla or Fatah. If you get HBO try to catch Oliver Stones documentary. Listen to the sides. The most articulate is the American Educated Al Aska raghead with the Kalishnikov, hopefully that faction will win.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

As the Poets have mournfully sung.
Death takes the innocent young,
The rolling in money,
the screamingly funny,
And those who are very well hung.
W.H. Auden
New Excuse the crap out of me.
Opposing thuggocrats has been a leftie hobby for a long, long time.

Bush just realized it's a convenient cover for the lack of a legitimate causus belli. I predict the next ruler of Iraq will be a bloody thuggocrat who's willing to play along with Bush.

In particular, some of us suggested that Bush I should not have bailed Saddam's ass out when the Iraqui's had almost overthrown him. And should have at least mentioned that gassing the Kurds is considered in poor taste - yeah, he knew about it and was in communication with the thug at the time and DIDN'T SAY A FUCKING WORD.

There's a lot that could have been done short of war. Like not installing a known thug in the first place. But Republicans (except in odd times like this) LOVE murderous bastards like Saddam until they do something that interferes with business - in this case, nationalizing the oil production*. So do "electable" Democrats, unfortunately. But us foaming mouth leftists have a long history of getting upset about murderous thuggocrats and being told that sovereignty is more important than civil rights. Nice term "human/civil" - kind of implies we are being picky about electoral improprieties and restrictions on porn, when the rights we are more concerned with are things like the right not to be tortured to death for no particular reason.

* No, the war isn't about oil, exactly. But if Saddam had continued to play nice with the oil companies, Bush would still love him. Mass graves and gas and all.

----
Sometime you the windshield, sometime you the bug...
New Uhhh.. Yes.___ Exactly.
     lets move the Palestinians to Alaska - (boxley) - (10)
         I nominate Antarctica. - (marlowe) - (8)
             Define a "people" - (boxley) - (7)
                 The decency of the human condition demands... - (marlowe) - (6)
                     you have never met, worked with Palestinians I take it - (boxley) - (5)
                         Met a very nice Palestinian at Java ONE - (bluke)
                         So what's with the suicide bombing? - (marlowe) - (3)
                             There will be a civil war amongst the Palestinians - (boxley)
                             Excuse the crap out of me. - (mhuber) - (1)
                                 Uhhh.. Yes.___ Exactly. -NT - (Ashton)
         Bartcop has a standing invitation - (Silverlock)

And if I'm just going for effect, I might as well wear a tie. And pants.
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