Lets call it what it is.

Post #10,565 by Andrew Grygus 9/26/01 12:03:37 PM Reply	Lets call it what it is. Innocent people have already died, around 6000 of them in one day. Plenty more innocents will die, maybe thousands more, maybe tens of thousands. You know the perpetrators will make every effort to maximize the number of their own innocents who will be killed by any action we take. Noncombatants are of no value to them except as body counts. Sad? No, it's infuriating. The guilty can never be sufficiently punished. This is war, yes, it is war. Lets not try to "pretty it up". [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #10,568 by brettj 9/26/01 12:38:01 PM Reply	It's a matter of perspective, in my opinion. These hate-filled people have declared war but we haven't attacked any nations, races, religions or peoples. Why? We don't want to escalate this into a war. Am I wrong? This is a fight against terrorism and those the perpetrate it. These murderers may enjoy killing innocent women and children but America and the rest of the World does not. We have grown past that stage. That is my opinion and I am sticking by it. Sometimes you just have to have faith. Now is one of those times.
Post #10,576 by Ashton 9/26/01 3:23:18 PM Reply	I'll take it you are serious. Here is a possible scenario - Unfortunately.. 'killing' is not always so dramatic and so wholesale as - as what we all saw on 9/11. If it were, every time, just maybe it would be more in our collective nature to actively seek and find non-lethal solutions to our squabbles (usually over control of the Earth's resources; whatever is said about "Gods' Wills"). Perhaps next, via our techno: each death could be shown in slo-mo, million-color as the piece of some object flattens a living human, one loved by someone else who must next contemplate: What To Do about This killing. Next ?? These hate-filled people have declared war but we haven't attacked any nations, races, religions or peoples. Why? We don't want to escalate this into a war. As a species - we seem unable to be honest about what we are actually killing about, each time: and this time. And next. Leaders get away with the platitudes because those are what we want to believe. This must be the case, otherwise their 'logic' (for the next groups of 19-year-old cannon fodder: ALWAYS somebody's children) - would be ridiculed for its patent absurdity. (Kuwait wasn't about oil. Grenada was a threat to 'national security'.) Those who blame.. America? the idea of America? the past actions of those covert operations allegedly the ~"will of Americans" ?? etc. may or may not have each story straight -- but carry around the hatred of that which they are "sure enough" -- caused the death, injury of some one person close to them. Sometimes this 'causality' is a tortured syllogism, leading to a comfortable target for the grief caused. Maybe other times - the causality is unmistakeable (?) Ask a Chilean who loved Allende - for just one specimen. (Others will settle for the hearsay and the admonitions of their local.. Authority figures) As here: remember the cold war? First Strike? (might be the only way to survive: nuke Them All first!). Was it overall any more cerebral, less a visceral reaction than: kill a Commie for Christ ? This attitude began while.. WW-II was winding down and it became obvious that: Stalin wasn't about to withdraw from the occupied E. Eur. countries. Finally after decades a Gorbachev appeared and Enough! was declared. Miraculously no one used a single nuke -- but it was Very close in 10/62. (Almost) nobody is 'innocent' of willingly believing stereotypes about opponents - always generated so as to de-humanize the ones in Your crosshairs. Or turning a blind eye to one's own machinations - for advantage. (If the target isn't really human, then you aren't really killing people.. just.. The Enemy.) Were you unfamiliar with this process? Last I looked: it's still the main one. Truth re motives is not this species' strong suit, y'notice? HTH Ashton
Post #10,577 by brettj 9/26/01 3:32:55 PM Reply	Are you suggesting we can't change? I thought free will was a given. Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.
Post #10,578 by Ashton 9/26/01 3:54:34 PM Reply	Re: Are you suggesting we can't change? Language was invented that men could disguise their thoughts from each other In love, war, bizness, sports, science (in the pursuit of tenure), religion (in the pursuit of appearing Right-eous) ... Have I missed some? Art, music - more honest - there are no words and beauty needs none. (Even bad art is at least authentic. Unless it's selling something - then it isn't art anyway.) Free will? Change our nature? Sorry - don't know what that means. Another problem with our species: there is little agreement even about, ~"what it means to Be"! let alone.. 'to be human'. A.
Post #10,659 by wharris2 9/27/01 3:52:02 AM Reply	Free will? Are you saying the Arabic people (Palestinians, Afghanistanis, Iraqis, many others) who are constantly harranged at how evil Israel and American and the west in general are can truly be said to have free will? We (using "we" as in most of the western democracies) are bombarded with politicians, TV talking heads, editorials, advertising, and whatnot, so in that respect it could be said that we are constantly being brainwashed - but that's nothing compared to the hatred that seems to spew out of the middle east. Who knows how empty the sky is In the place of a fallen tower. Who knows how quiet it is in the home Where a son has not returned. -- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
Post #10,662 by Ashton 9/27/01 4:10:03 AM Reply	Appropriate, almost eerie Akhmatova quote. Another sample - When you're drunk it's so much fun -- Your stories don't make sense. An early fall has strung The elms with yellow flags. We've strayed into the land of deceit And we're repenting bitterly, Why then are we smiling these Strange and frozen smiles? We wanted piercing anguish Instead of placid happiness. . . I won't abandon my comrade, So dissolute and mild. 1911 (Paris) -- translated by Judith Hemschemeyer And a brief comment from: [link\|http://dybka.home.mindspring.com/jill/akhmatova/\|About the poet] Anna Andreevna Akhmatova (1889-1966) "Anna Andreevna Akhmatova used poetry to give voice to the struggles and deepest yearnings of the Russian people, for whom she remains the greatest of literary heroines. She has lately come to symbolize for the world even beyond Russia the power of art to survive and transcend the terrors of our century." Judith Hemschemeyer, A Stranger to Heaven and Earth Thanks for reminding about her. A.
Post #10,757 by brettj 9/28/01 8:25:35 AM Reply	Everyone has free will. Some just choose to blame others for their lack of it. P.S. Free will is a biblical concept that states that God allows good and evil in this world and it is up to us to choose which side we prefer to show the world. There will always be those that choose evil over good but sometimes you just have to have faith that there are more good people in this world than evil people, and also that the good people will stand up to the violent minority and conquer evil? Do you disagree with me again? Remember what I stated before? All you need is love. You answered: "Should we love them to death?!" My silent answer was Yes. Peace be with you. Choose love, not hate.
Post #10,777 by CRConrad 9/28/01 10:59:14 AM Reply	Again, a Jeezmoid demonstrates a sadly narrow point of view. The Brettster: P.S. Free will is a biblical concept that states that God allows good and evil in this world and it is up to us to choose which side we prefer to show the world. Funny, I thought the question of predestination vs free will was a philosophical -- as in, each puny religion is just one (stupidly superstitious backwater) sub-sector of the wider catregory -- concept. But, hey, if it's an important question, then of course it _MUST_ be "biblical" (NB, they're not even letting the other stupid old superstitions get a look in), right...? Shee-eesh! Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #10,789 by brettj 9/28/01 11:57:35 AM Reply	Your catch phrase says it all. BTW, did you notice I mentioned I am new to religion? You, on the other hand, know everything about everything. Sorry to offend you. Peace.
Post #10,792 by ChrisR 9/28/01 12:08:02 PM Reply	Don't know but... Funny, I thought the question of predestination vs free will was a philosophical -- as in, each puny religion is just one (stupidly superstitious backwater) sub-sector of the wider catregory -- concept. I would think that the more general concept in Philosophy is defined in terms of Behaviorism - i.e. whether we simply react to stimili or whether we can truly transcend our impulses. Anyhow, I'm not sure that the question of predistination versus free will really has much meaning outside a theological context (and really not much meaning there except to tie up some loose ends about the "chosen" ones).
Post #10,801 by marlowe 9/28/01 12:49:12 PM Reply	You got a problem with the Bible saying stuff? Is it intruding on philosophy's turf? And are you sure you know who was there first? And last but not least: was your reaction the result of free will, or was it strictly deterministic? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #10,804 by brettj 9/28/01 12:59:42 PM Reply	I swallowed your bait, hook, line & sinker. And here I was supposed to be on the look-out for flame bait. My bad. ):
Post #10,569 by brettj 9/26/01 12:53:47 PM Reply	On second thought I'm not sure what to call it? Awful comes to mind. I see your point and I sorta see my previous point. Either way we are fighting evil, that is for sure.

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