Post #104,398
6/1/03 1:39:02 PM
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Gory revelations come as surprise to some.
[link|http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2003/06/01/MN203466.DTL|Like the SF Chronicle, for instance]
Excerpt:
Baghdad -- Like so many Iraqis these days, Chedha al Awsi feels betrayed and confused.
On a computer screen before her, poorly recorded footage shows half a dozen laughing soldiers of Saddam Hussein's elite Republican Guard as they beat and kick civilian men kneeling on the ground, their hands bound behind their backs.
There is a glitch in the recording, then the screen shows soldiers tying dynamite to the chests of their prisoners and blowing them up, one by one. Pieces of human flesh and bone fly in all directions. Al Awsi jolts in her seat, her face distorted by a grimace of pain.
For much of the rest of the world, the gruesome crimes of Hussein's rule are familiar, if tragic, knowledge. But for al Awsi and for millions of her fellow citizens, they are shocking news.
"You just suddenly realize that you didn't know what was happening. I feel deceived," said al Awsi, a 31-year-old office manager at a private trading company, her eyes glued to the computer screen.
After Hussein's Baath Party seized power in 1968, it executed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and destined many more to the hell of Hussein's torture chambers. But criticizing the president and his party was a crime punishable by death. The combination of Hussein's brutal security police and his totalitarian propaganda machine sufficiently silenced any dissent from reaching ordinary people.
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DEAL WITH IT.
I helped depose Saddam. Did you?
When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate.
The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #104,406
6/1/03 4:49:12 PM
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I imagine torture videos will pop up all over the 'net
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #104,439
6/1/03 11:57:37 PM
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Why some dictatorships get overthrown & others don't
Any one read yesterday that Burma's Aung San Suu Kyi (Myanmar) was just arrested yet again as another military crackdown gets underway. This dictatorship has been trampling democracy & killing students there for over 10 years.
To 'Marlowe' Myanmar is in SE Asia & has had a military dictatorship for so long, most people can't remember when it began. They annulled elections about 10 years back when their (military puppet) candidate lost.
So when is Bush going to arrange for a regime change there ???
Do we need to spread stories that Burma has masses of hidden oil reserves ???
[link|http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=4D17DB4C-71F4-4331-BF060403126A0243|http://www.voanews.c...-BF060403126A0243]
DSM
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Post #104,447
6/2/03 6:38:10 AM
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The Burma Road
Too distant past for our resident callow neoconman to have any inkling; like all the other events he is ignorant and disdainful of - in our constellation of supported dictators, conmen cut from the same chain mail as Karl Rove et al. (Like my Gramma again - she didn't know shit about any of the objects on her hate-list, or the US Love-list either.)
NPR reporter on the scene mentioned the likelihood of student riots, on this latest (and almost expected) re-arrest. That was the putative reason for imposing immediate curfews and the usual Homeland Security functions. The Bush cabal learns so much from our past associations, about the irrelevance of principles.
Ashton
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Post #104,543
6/2/03 2:02:09 PM
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At least this one was stopped, whatever the real reason
[link|http://home.att.net/~genocides/tour.htm|http://home.att.net/~genocides/tour.htm]
[link|http://www.foreignwire.com/cambodia.html|http://www.foreignwire.com/cambodia.html]
[link|http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/amin.htm|http://www.moreorles.../killers/amin.htm]
[link|http://www.hitler.org/|http://www.hitler.org/]
Think about doing something if your not to jaded...
[link|http://www.amnesty.org/|http://www.amnesty.org/]
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.
Y. Islam - Father and Son
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Post #104,607
6/3/03 3:37:01 AM
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Re: At least this one was stopped, whatever the real reason
Not sure what the message is ?
Re Cambodia. That has an untold story that most don't want to hear. It begins with 'Air America' bombing over the Vietnam border & continues with how Pol Pot was covertly funded as an opposition anti viet-communist to Hun Sen's Viet-sponsored leadership of Cambodia.
Re the other links, also not able to follow the point?.
Doug
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Post #104,646
6/3/03 1:56:58 PM
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Sorry for the ubiquity (word?)
Greed for oil, opium, means of production, gold or whatever commodity you may choose to fill in are the underlying reasons for most wars. As you pointed out, the reason we were there and not in Uganda is most probably the oil. My major point could be summarized as the "end justifies the mean".
Step back for a minute, Doug. If you look beyond the tragedy of the war itself, the US has no goals of subjecting the Iraqi or Afghani people to tyranny (except the tyranny of being one of our trading "partners"). Groups like Amnesty are not decrying "why we went into Iraq" but rather, "why are we not going to the other places where tyrants exists". A point I share and a point that has had me donating to this group for nearly 15 years. It's a subtle distinction, but very important to me.
The whole debate about "justification" is just an extension of the "am I my brother's keeper" argument. Strange, considering who it's coming from in this country (largely politically motivated Democrats). But if not the U.S., then who? Most countries have demonstrated a willingness to not give a rat's ass what happens in other countries so long as their own oil supplies, food supplies, and general well being are not threatened. Live and let die... That's the "moral high ground" position. :-)
I posted a few links in order to point out that tyrants left unchecked or "appeased" rarely turn out "good"... YMMV.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.
Y. Islam - Father and Son
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Post #104,731
6/4/03 1:19:43 AM
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Tks for clarification
Am sure we have similar thoughts re the ultimate outcome of Iraq adventure. As have said many times, my issue has always been the way the deed was sold rather than the deed itself.
I am reading a fascinating book at the moment called 'What If' (there are 2 in the series) in one story (written by eminent historians) they discuss what would have been the impact had the Germanic people under Arminius not wiped out Rome's 3 best legions (led by Varus) in the Teutoberg Forest in AD 9. The Romans had trained Arminius & he had campaigned with the Romans in several major wars.
The picture they look at is how diffent European history might be had Varus been a better commander who succeeded in pacifying Germanica.
There are interesting parallels with the Arab Middle east. Also, seing Bush put his neck on the line with Arab leaders adds an interesting dimension.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #104,811
6/4/03 11:23:59 AM
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Sounds very interesting...
could you provide publisher, author/editor, or even a link. I have been reading a lot of history myself as of late (from rereading my old college World History textbooks to Crighton's Timeline). I spent quite a long time with the first link I posted, under the "Other Hidden Genocides by the Allies" section ( [link|http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm|http://home.att.net/~genophilia/mw1.htm] ). I couldn't sleep very well, especially after the AN EYEWITNESS ACCOUNT passage. After the many accounts I've read about that war (from both published and eyewitness accounts), it is little wonder why we should never allow ourselves to let national identity (ethos) play a very major role in our thinking process as human beings. I realize that national pride has been pounded into our beady little skulls since birth, but it is fun to ponder lofty ideas such as "moral high ground" from any national entity.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.
Y. Islam - Father and Son
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Post #104,820
6/4/03 11:47:57 AM
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Amazon.com link
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-2798755-6835829|What If (1 & 2) by Robert Cowley]
When they took the Fourth Amendment, I was quiet because I didn't deal drugs.
When they took the Fifth Amendment, I was quiet because I was innocent.
When they took the Second Amendment, I was quiet because I didn't own a gun.
Now they've taken the First Amendment, and I can't say anything about it.
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