The Crackdown has Started.

Post #10,360 by inthane-chan 9/24/01 12:26:41 PM Reply	The Crackdown has Started. I was talking to my father on the phone last night, and made my usual crack about "fascists crawling out of the woodwork." He asked me if I was afraid saying stuff like that over the phone, to which I responded "Of course, but that's not going to stop me." Now my wife is chiming in, "encouraging" me to stop voicing my views - the old maxim, "don't stick your head up unless you want it to get cut off." Well, here's what I have to say to that: "When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church \ufffd and there was nobody left to be concerned." - Pastor Martin Niem\ufffdller Still, I know that there is going to be a lot of pressure on all fronts to curtail our freedom of speech - and I hope you all take your stand as necessary. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #10,402 by bbronson 9/24/01 4:40:19 PM Reply	Where's the crackdown? Was this posted as flamebait? Your father and wife raising concerns about your freedom of speech amounts to a crackdown? I agree with the sentiment expressed in your selection one of the great freedom quotes, but I don't see the crackdown in your post. Brian Bronson
Post #10,416 by inthane-chan 9/24/01 5:16:13 PM Reply	The Crackdown of Self-Censorship. The point I'm making is that our greatest weakness is the "concern" of our loved ones, as well as our concern for them. We'll hide, try to survive in our own ways, on our own, and our fear for those we care about, and their fear for us will cripple our willingness to stand up to what's coming down the pipe from Dictators Shrub, Cheney, and Ashcroft. Not flamebait at all. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #10,426 by Ashton 9/24/01 5:39:56 PM Reply	Sample today on NPR - Not of such self-censorship but.. Ashcroft presenting his proposal to House. And announcing, "I have to leave at 3pm" - allowing about 17 minutes! for immediate questions. Conyers (MI) made clear that this was ~unacceptable, and mentioned several Constitutional concerns re "indefinite deyention w/o charges" and re a mechanism to recover property unfairly confiscated (about time! re the Drug Warz too, of course). <1 min per member, etc. and after leaders spoke -- only a couple could be heard for a sound byte. A. kept his schedule and left. Niem\ufffdller Lives. We'll have to see, for whom? as we watch the legislators for signs of nascent principles. (And M$, not for principles; we know about those - but for how they can abuse this time - and certainly will) Let's not allow that to recede into the truss ads, too.. A.
Post #10,439 by imric 9/24/01 7:15:46 PM Reply	Self? I'm already getting angry looks from both co-workers and certain of my friends for voicing concern over the (further) erosion of civil liberties that the government will likely enact in response for the attack. It goes like this: The government HAS to do this to keep us safe, and to combat terrorism. If you aren't with the program, you're anti-government. If you're anti-government, you're anti-American If you're anti-American, you're pro-terrorist Ugh. I've tried to combat this by stating that our civil liberties, our rights, are what make the US a special place in the world, and that if the government takes away those rights, we'll be nothing special - and the terrorists will have ultimately won. SO far, that's been quieting them. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #10,442 by inthane-chan 9/24/01 7:54:32 PM Reply	Ultimately all censorship... ...is self-censorship. This is just the first wave of intimidation. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #10,556 by imric 9/26/01 10:13:42 AM Reply	Until the point at which your are 'silenced'. Permanently. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #10,445 by Ashton 9/24/01 8:12:05 PM Reply	That you have to explain such things.. indicates how ignorant do many folk remain, of world history, our history - and what might be Worth dying for, on occasion. We may hope that your reminder produced a lull of the sort, Oh yeah!.. I forgot for a moment and not, Huh? never thought of That.. A.
Post #10,553 by imric 9/26/01 10:12:35 AM Reply	Unfortunately Huh? never thought of That is the more common of the positive responses. I was told last night that the FBI would never use abridgements of our rights against 'real' Americans. I was also told that central, federal, and absolute authority was going to be (by nature) less corrupt than elected local authority. I was also told that indefinite detention of many was acceptable as long as they got a guilty few, because those guilty few could harm many. We are watching the true death of US ideals, my friends. I begin to despair. Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #10,561 by Ashton 9/26/01 10:56:37 AM Reply	To the extent that your sample is representative of the self-worshipping yuppie class du jour (?) all ignorant of all things not-me: Thou sayest. A. What fools these Murican mortals be.. Puck - the 2001 Dude
Post #10,471 by jb4 9/26/01 1:49:16 AM Reply	Use the football analogy We have a worldwide football game going on. Everything that happens that does anything to diminish the American way of life sores points for the Other Side. Anything we do to diminish the threat of terrorism without diminishing the American way of life scores points for Us. The terror attack on the WTC was a touchdown, a 2-point PAT, and a recovered on-side kick run in for another touchdown. 15 points for the Bad Guys Calmly, but determinedly declaring war on terrorism, backing that declaration with calculated action, getting the vast majority of countries to publicly support that action: touchdown and PAT...7 points for the good guys The work done at ground-zero, the volunteerism, donations of time, money, and materiel (and blood!) by Americans of all stripes: field goal...10 points for the Good Guys. Ashcroft et al even sponsoring a bill that would allow detention of anybody..."just 'cuz" is a field goal for the Forces of Darkness: 18 points for the Bad Guys. Current score: Bad Guys, 18...Good Guys 10. End of first quarter (but its still early...) Even the "America, love it or leave it" crowd and understand and appreciate a footbal analogy... jb4 (Resistance is not futile...)
Post #10,549 by imric 9/26/01 9:58:39 AM Reply	grin I like it! Imric's Tips for Living Paranoia Is a Survival Trait Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised... Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Post #10,449 by bbronson 9/25/01 2:20:09 AM Reply	Re: The Crackdown of Self-Censorship. "...what's coming down the pipe from Dictators Shrub, Cheney, and Ashcroft. Not flamebait at all...." Right. Not flamebait. My bad. Brian Bronson
Post #10,452 by inthane-chan 9/25/01 2:30:04 AM Reply	Okay, that was a little bit over the line. But, if you've been keeping track on what they've been asking for, it is looking just a little bit police statish. Especially the computer crimes parts, but look at Ashcroft's requested changes to wiretapping laws... And FYI, if any other President was asking for the same things, I'd be calling them Dictator too, regardless of political persuasion. "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Post #10,511 by ben_tilly 9/26/01 5:59:46 AM Reply	My response? When it becomes UnAmerican to be a smartass, America will exist in name only. While the spirit of this country breathes, we all have to keep its spirit alive in any way we can, and one way I do it is to remain a smartass. Cheers, Ben
Post #10,544 by boxley 9/26/01 9:44:13 AM Reply	I have been villified, aplauded, beaten and cheered all for the same point of view at different times. What goes around goes around again. Too old to quit now. thanx, bill why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #10,637 by marlowe 9/27/01 1:49:04 AM Reply	Well, I'm with ya on that one. When I was a kid, and somebody said something stupid, I'd object, and then he'd say "don't be such a smartass." To which I'd reply "better a smartass than a dumbass like you." Usually that shut them up. But sometimes it just made them louder. And oftentimes it brought on physical violence. But I could usually win a physical fight with a stupid opponent. It's hard not to be able to block or dodge a roundhouse punch. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Post #10,638 by Fearless Freep 9/27/01 1:52:45 AM Reply	To quote Hobbes... To which I'd reply "better a smartass than a dumbass like you." "I bet your natural charm has made you a good sprinter" Jay O'Connor "Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
Post #10,647 by marlowe 9/27/01 3:05:56 AM Reply	That's a bet you'd lose. I don't run. I'm not built for it, emotionally or physically. I stand my ground and fight dirtier (and way smarter) than the other guy. Eventually I win. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]

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