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New Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ???

It really is stunning isn't, when we hear Bin Laden say how shameful US is in relation to Palestinian problems.

He ignores so many issues such as Israel being the only practising democracy in the region.

He ignores his own (Bin Laden's) depths of shame in supporting those who went killing many black africans just to get a few Americans.

Same again for all the innocents and non-US that were murdered in New York & Washington.

The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is.

A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith.

So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions.

Doug Marker

New Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion.
The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is.

A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith.
So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions.
While there are certain 'authorities' across the infinite spectrum which calls itself 'Christian' - so also is there *no* 'authority' universally recognized by all / even most of these diverse sects. (The Pope speaks for lots - hardly for all - nor are his orders obeyed by even a majority of Catholics, in many areas)

IMhO, the problem is fundamentalism whatever the sect. In each case the 'fundamental' refers to the ancient words of men, interpreted and translated by other men: packaged and sold to children and inculcated into their growing experience. The philosophical ideas, the difficulties even of definition of such lofty ideas as truth, let alone 'The Truth' - form no part of this conditioning process.

The Tee Vee program 60 Minutes, last night interviewed a couple Israeli captured and convicted wannabe-bombers: captured only because their bombs failed to explode. As backdrop were shown - the images, 'cartoons', speeches -- all creating the idea of the Bomber as being "living martyr" / precisely "walking dead" - an unconditional Super hero. 72 Virgins the reward for: the (usually) under-20 year old male living in a sexually repressive culture (!). Both these persons were ecstatic about their impending deaths, had made videos with symbolic backdrops - explaining their next action. Believed the promise that, "you won't die, but go immediately to your mansion of x000 rooms, your 70/72 virgins.. etc.". Still, as of the days old interview. Pure and simple brainwashing of 100% effectiveness. No longer human - a bio-weapon.

I see little difference among the Christian, Muslim or other fundamentalists - for these are each, persons inured to the peculiarity of their worldview, unconcerned with the ideas of all others - nor of the value of a life -- not aligned with their mindset. Period. There seem to be only differences in degree: how Far a fundamentalist will go, in enforcing his aims upon all others not-him. Islam is the extreme now - for being also the least powerful / sharing least in the World National Product = it's about material poverty. Period

Falwell is bin-Laden, but with currently more tempered means available to him and his ilk. So far. He is *Certain* "what God means for Us All to Do". But were the US in a chaotic internal condition? What then would Falwell, Robertson et al advocate.. to restore Murica to Righteousness, -- had he the temporary power to enforce his Dictats ??

So long as children *anywhere* are conditioned to accept mindlessly that, The Truth can be handed out; they have gotten it and: no bestial action is too extreme in the furtherance of This Truth: le plus sa m\ufffdme chose..

Organized religion assures that: at least some members of every church corporation - shall be nascent terrorists, given the means and opportunity to act. The enemy of every open society is the 'Belief': I Know what the One True God means for me to do next..



Ashton
New Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists...
that not only risk their own lives but those of their wives and children to stake out land for Israel in the those settlements. For God and country.

These folks are all the same.

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0060916125/107-4874319-1066941|True Believer.]
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New But not someone's else wives and children
Also, they were rather secular lot, if I understand correctly. Add to that the recent holocaust: risks were everywhere anyway.
New Re: But not someone's else wives and children
I don't believe they are so secular in making "facts on the ground" and claiming their Biblical lands.

Sure Israel is a very risky place to be. But the level of risk in settlements is extremely high. They need to be protected by the IDF as well as being armed themselves. They can't travel to work or school unless under guard. Nor are they that safe in their enclaves with the Palestinian sniping and shelling that occurs sporadically.

My point is that they have set themselves and their families to be martyrs for their cause while at the same time enraging the Palestinians. They get to kill Palestinians, off and on, as a bonus. When mortars are used distinctions between men, women, and children vanish. These are the heroic Israelis. While not strictly suicidal, they are suicidal by proxy. Not much difference, the way I see it. These folks fuel the fire of hatred as much as the Palestinian suicide bombers. "I will kill you when I can and would rather die than not have my way." is the message of both.

It's a prescription for perpetual violence.

For both of them, it's a tragic way of life. I wish the US had not been dragged into it.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New So, your position is that...
...Falwell is a (potential?) mass murdering terrorist?
New Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment
where profit is defined to include not just money but power.

Absolutely. All that stops him is that he knows he'd get raided before he could get as much as he can by working the system.
----
Watch this space: Catch-22 quote will appear once I have the book in front of me.
New Speech != action...
I find this comparison of Falwell and bin Laden to be as stupid as Falwell's correlation of the tragedy with America's moral failing.

All it demonstrates is that one group of humans can pronounce another group as "evil", without needing a religious crutch upon which to lean. Simple innuendo and prognistication will suffice.
New The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability
of equally horrendous actions. The Will to enforce your fantasies on others is ever limited by the Power to do so.

As Mike observes - Falwell et al, currently lack the power to achieve that which (they have said repeatedly) they Know - is what Muricans Ought to Do = What God Wants\ufffd

No one can describe *what* floats around inside those pretty-little heads; I certainly do not claim to. Nor are we likely to find out. (If it's OK to bash gays, kill medical folk to save zygotes - what Else is it OK to kill, for God?) Nor are any 'social contracts' among humans valid - when you Speak for God. In such minds.

But as to their Certainties? Just listen to them a while. Yes, I see them as interchangeable in mindset; only the power is (currently) different.



Ashton
Check out Father Couglan, in the '20s, '30s, on radio - Murican home-grown wannabe Ayatollahs is *nothing new*
New Other Osama ignoring
As recently as May, I believe, Colin Powell was praising our then-recent foreign aid of some 40-50 million to Afghanistan.

We have aided Israel, yes.

We have spent hundreds of millions in aid to other countries in the region, too.

Yet they spit in our face.

I would move that any country with citizens celebrating in the streets after the plane bombing should have all foreign aid from us cut off. Immediately.

Jerry Pournelle had the unique notion of bulldozing the neighborhoods in which that was known to have happened, sowing the ground with salt, and building a monument to the victims. Perhaps a trifle extreme, but it would be effective.
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, Thomas, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
     The reason for the terrorist attacks (in a nutshell) - (brettj) - (37)
         Perhaps he simply likes explosions and death - (tablizer) - (3)
             Too Much American Movie? - (gdaustin) - (2)
                 "Gironimo"? - (tablizer) - (1)
                     Some say he left at least 4 days ago... - (Another Scott)
         New O'Reilly book? Lemming on the cover?..............Sorry -NT - (Another Scott) - (8)
             How does the destruction of Buddhist shrines by the Taliban - (brettj) - (7)
                 It's complicated. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     I thought that was simple... - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                         Let's take this a bit farther. - (brettj) - (2)
                             Not sure what you mean... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                 The Afghan tribes didn't destroy the idols until the Taliban - (brettj)
                         Real tolerant of other religions? - (orion) - (1)
                             Do you mean like.. - (Ashton)
         Reasons for terrorism - (Ric Locke) - (6)
             But, wait! There is Sadam, the Saladin, 1990 model. - (a6l6e6x)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (gtall)
             Thanks. This answer's part of my question below. - (brettj)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (bluke)
         The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place. - (brettj) - (16)
             How do the Jewish people fit into the picture? - (brettj) - (15)
                 Osama bin Laden quotes. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                     Thanks. Here is a LA Times link. - (brettj) - (3)
                         Re: And therein lies the biggest dilemma - (dmarker2) - (2)
                             This is starting to look like a Hitler repeat? - (brettj) - (1)
                                 Uh, that's not how it was, is it? - (CRConrad)
                     Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ??? - (dmarker2) - (9)
                         Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion. - (Ashton) - (7)
                             Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 But not someone's else wives and children - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                     Re: But not someone's else wives and children - (a6l6e6x)
                             So, your position is that... - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                 Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment - (mhuber) - (2)
                                     Speech != action... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                         The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability - (Ashton)
                         Other Osama ignoring - (wharris2)

And yes, IT WORKED!!!!!
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