The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place.

Post #10,266 by brettj 9/23/01 10:07:01 AM Reply	The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place. And unless someone is really good at framing people, most signs point to bin Laden and the Taliban leaders. The German connection is the part I don't yet understand. [link\|http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/22/inv.embassy.bombings.attorneys/index.html\|Attacks seen to echo embassy bombings] (CNN) -- As authorities piece together the puzzle that is the team of terrorist hijackers, attorneys who represented some of those found guilty in the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, see the fingerprints of Osama bin Laden's worldwide terrorist network in the attacks on Washington and New York. The August 7, 1998, bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed 224 people, including 12 Americans. Bin Laden, a dissident Saudi-born millionaire, was among those indicted by a U.S. District Court in New York, although he was never captured and remains atop the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List.
Post #10,267 by brettj 9/23/01 11:11:15 AM Reply	How do the Jewish people fit into the picture? Who might not like America's support of Israel? Is it somehow related to what is going on?
Post #10,273 by a6l6e6x 9/23/01 2:41:30 PM Reply	Osama bin Laden quotes. The Sunday Charlotte Observer (2001/9/23), "Perspective" section, "Osama bin Laden - Know Your Enemy" article, has published some quotes from bin Laden made to the US press in the past. [link\|http://www.charlotte.com/observer/\|Charlotte Observer] but ever changing content. on ABC News in 1998: "Your situation with Muslims in Palestine is shameful, if there is any shame left in America. ...Our battle against the Americans is far greater than our battle was against the Russians." Time Magazine 1999/1/11 excerpts: "Those that sympathize with the infidels - such as the PLO in Palestine, or the so called Palestinian Authority - have been trying for tens of years to get back some of their rights. They have laid down arms and abandoned what is called 'violence' and tried peaceful bargaining. What did the Jews give them? They did not get even 1% of their rights." "Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God" ... The Palestinian situation is part and parcel of bin Laden motivations. Alex Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
Post #10,276 by brettj 9/23/01 3:32:27 PM Reply	Thanks. Here is a LA Times link. [link\|http://www.charlotte.com/observer/natwor/docs/govern0923.htm\| Taliban alternative could be worse] Country's political future must be planned as carefully as war By PAUL WATSON Los Angeles Times PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- Endless war has reduced Afghanistan to ruin and has killed or forced out so many millions of people that only the desperate and the extreme remain. It is a country suffering a critical shortage of credible leaders. If a U.S.-led force were to attack Afghanistan and the ruling Taliban movement became the latest in a succession of regimes to fall, it would stir up a cesspool of drugs, guns and terror that could only be avoided if the country's political future were mapped out as carefully as the targets of war, experts here warn.
Post #10,298 by dmarker2 9/23/01 9:47:02 PM Reply	Re: And therein lies the biggest dilemma Taliban toughness brought some stability to Afghanistan. Same is happening in Somalia. When these tough Islamic & Sharia law rulers are removed, they are usually replaced by drug dealing feuding warlords (in these depressed countries). Also Brett, in the initial post in this thread you mention that 'Bin Laden wants to take over Afghanistan'. Truth is that Bin Laden (thru Taliban) already had taken over Afghanistan & achieved his goal of using this as a springboard training ground for movements being set up to do same in other former Soviet states bordering Afghansitan & incl Pakistan & Indonesia & including northern China. Problem for us is that, as you say, he hates US because they are stationed in Saudi - home of Mecca. Bin Laden is not a cleric nor does he lead the Muslim faith. For that reason he has no right to call a fatwa against US. Bin Laden is an evil enemy of the US who wilst not having his finger on the actual trigger, is providing the infrastructure to train the trigger pullers who do the actual deeds & fullfil his desire to attack the US. Any normal Muslim would never recite the following ... Allah and the Kor'an permits us to murder unarmed airline passengers Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder unsuspecting women and children Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder other muslims working in or visiting US target sites Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder non-US visitors & workers to US target sites Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder Jews working or visiting US target sites BUT - a good number of Muslims put it differently - they say America got what it had coming !!! - anyone saying that should be asked to recite the above because truth is, that is what they seem to be saying when they argue that the attacks were in the slightest way justifiable..... Cheers Doug Marker
Post #10,307 by brettj 9/23/01 10:37:11 PM Reply	This is starting to look like a Hitler repeat? Where some hate-filled person declares death to other groups of people. Hitler feed off of the poverty of the people he brain-washed. The similarites are errie and morbid. P.S. Thanks for mentioning that bin Laden already "rules" Afghanistan. His victory over the Russian has emboldened him significantly when fighting super-powers and poor countries alike.
Post #10,654 by CRConrad 9/27/01 3:32:17 AM Reply	Uh, that's not how it was, is it? Brett Jayess writes: ...bin Laden already "rules" Afghanistan. His victory over the Russian has emboldened him significantly... Osama bin Laden didn't beat the Russians. I don't think even the Taliban did, before he came to them. What the Taliban have won is the civil war in Afghanistan, that got going after the Afghanis had kicked out the Russians -- once the common enemy was no longer there to unite them, the widely disparate factions inevitably turned on each other. My own guess would be, the Taliban probably won this too pretty much without bin Laden's help -- sure, he may have contributed money for guns, but I've seen no reports that he's much of a guerilla leader; just a terrorist leader and agitator pandering to the more or less illiterate (and the difference is rather large, I think). Who beat the Russians, if you want to attach that feat to a single name (which of course isn't really possible), was probably more than anyone else -- and, deeply ironically -- Ahmed Shah Massoud, the leader of the "Northern Alliance" that got bumped off by assassins -- apparently working for bin Laden -- just days before the attack in the US. At least Massoud's was the name you heard most of on the news, when Afghanistan was mentioned (and the fight against the Soviets was still going on), for most (at least the second half) of the eighties -- long before anyone had heard of this bin Laden character. Right? Christian R. Conrad The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
Post #10,318 by dmarker2 9/24/01 3:30:11 AM Reply	Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ??? It really is stunning isn't, when we hear Bin Laden say how shameful US is in relation to Palestinian problems. He ignores so many issues such as Israel being the only practising democracy in the region. He ignores his own (Bin Laden's) depths of shame in supporting those who went killing many black africans just to get a few Americans. Same again for all the innocents and non-US that were murdered in New York & Washington. The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is. A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith. So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions. Doug Marker
Post #10,391 by Ashton 9/24/01 3:55:19 PM Reply	Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion. The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is. A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith. So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions. While there are certain 'authorities' across the infinite spectrum which calls itself 'Christian' - so also is there no 'authority' universally recognized by all / even most of these diverse sects. (The Pope speaks for lots - hardly for all - nor are his orders obeyed by even a majority of Catholics, in many areas) IMhO, the problem is fundamentalism whatever the sect. In each case the 'fundamental' refers to the ancient words of men, interpreted and translated by other men: packaged and sold to children and inculcated into their growing experience. The philosophical ideas, the difficulties even of definition of such lofty ideas as truth, let alone 'The Truth' - form no part of this conditioning process. The Tee Vee program 60 Minutes, last night interviewed a couple Israeli captured and convicted wannabe-bombers: captured only because their bombs failed to explode. As backdrop were shown - the images, 'cartoons', speeches -- all creating the idea of the Bomber as being "living martyr" / precisely "walking dead" - an unconditional Super hero. 72 Virgins the reward for: the (usually) under-20 year old male living in a sexually repressive culture (!). Both these persons were ecstatic about their impending deaths, had made videos with symbolic backdrops - explaining their next action. Believed the promise that, "you won't die, but go immediately to your mansion of x000 rooms, your 70/72 virgins.. etc.". Still, as of the days old interview. Pure and simple brainwashing of 100% effectiveness. No longer human - a bio-weapon. I see little difference among the Christian, Muslim or other fundamentalists - for these are each, persons inured to the peculiarity of their worldview, unconcerned with the ideas of all others - nor of the value of a life -- not aligned with their mindset. Period. There seem to be only differences in degree: how Far a fundamentalist will go, in enforcing his aims upon all others not-him. Islam is the extreme now - for being also the least powerful / sharing least in the World National Product = it's about material poverty. Period Falwell is bin-Laden, but with currently more tempered means available to him and his ilk. So far. He is Certain "what God means for Us All to Do". But were the US in a chaotic internal condition? What then would Falwell, Robertson et al advocate.. to restore Murica to Righteousness, -- had he the temporary power to enforce his Dictats ?? So long as children anywhere are conditioned to accept mindlessly that, The Truth can be handed out; they have gotten it and: no bestial action is too extreme in the furtherance of This Truth: le plus sa m\ufffdme chose.. Organized religion assures that: at least some members of every church corporation - shall be nascent terrorists, given the means and opportunity to act. The enemy of every open society is the 'Belief': I Know what the One True God means for me to do next.. Ashton
Post #10,398 by a6l6e6x 9/24/01 4:17:35 PM Reply	Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists... that not only risk their own lives but those of their wives and children to stake out land for Israel in the those settlements. For God and country. These folks are all the same. [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0060916125/107-4874319-1066941\|True Believer.] Alex Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
Post #10,409 by Arkadiy 9/24/01 4:55:28 PM Reply	But not someone's else wives and children Also, they were rather secular lot, if I understand correctly. Add to that the recent holocaust: risks were everywhere anyway.
Post #10,490 by a6l6e6x 9/26/01 4:02:08 AM Reply	Re: But not someone's else wives and children I don't believe they are so secular in making "facts on the ground" and claiming their Biblical lands. Sure Israel is a very risky place to be. But the level of risk in settlements is extremely high. They need to be protected by the IDF as well as being armed themselves. They can't travel to work or school unless under guard. Nor are they that safe in their enclaves with the Palestinian sniping and shelling that occurs sporadically. My point is that they have set themselves and their families to be martyrs for their cause while at the same time enraging the Palestinians. They get to kill Palestinians, off and on, as a bonus. When mortars are used distinctions between men, women, and children vanish. These are the heroic Israelis. While not strictly suicidal, they are suicidal by proxy. Not much difference, the way I see it. These folks fuel the fire of hatred as much as the Palestinian suicide bombers. "I will kill you when I can and would rather die than not have my way." is the message of both. It's a prescription for perpetual violence. For both of them, it's a tragic way of life. I wish the US had not been dragged into it. Alex Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
Post #10,420 by ChrisR 9/24/01 5:22:38 PM Reply	So, your position is that... ...Falwell is a (potential?) mass murdering terrorist?
Post #10,422 by mhuber 9/24/01 5:31:23 PM Reply	Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment where profit is defined to include not just money but power. Absolutely. All that stops him is that he knows he'd get raided before he could get as much as he can by working the system. ---- Watch this space: Catch-22 quote will appear once I have the book in front of me.
Post #10,428 by ChrisR 9/24/01 5:56:40 PM Reply	Speech != action... I find this comparison of Falwell and bin Laden to be as stupid as Falwell's correlation of the tragedy with America's moral failing. All it demonstrates is that one group of humans can pronounce another group as "evil", without needing a religious crutch upon which to lean. Simple innuendo and prognistication will suffice.
Post #10,435 by Ashton 9/24/01 6:44:43 PM Reply	The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability of equally horrendous actions. The Will to enforce your fantasies on others is ever limited by the Power to do so. As Mike observes - Falwell et al, currently lack the power to achieve that which (they have said repeatedly) they Know - is what Muricans Ought to Do = What God Wants\ufffd No one can describe what floats around inside those pretty-little heads; I certainly do not claim to. Nor are we likely to find out. (If it's OK to bash gays, kill medical folk to save zygotes - what Else is it OK to kill, for God?) Nor are any 'social contracts' among humans valid - when you Speak for God. In such minds. But as to their Certainties? Just listen to them a while. Yes, I see them as interchangeable in mindset; only the power is (currently) different. Ashton Check out Father Couglan, in the '20s, '30s, on radio - Murican home-grown wannabe Ayatollahs is nothing new
Post #10,535 by wharris2 9/26/01 8:45:27 AM Reply	Other Osama ignoring As recently as May, I believe, Colin Powell was praising our then-recent foreign aid of some 40-50 million to Afghanistan. We have aided Israel, yes. We have spent hundreds of millions in aid to other countries in the region, too. Yet they spit in our face. I would move that any country with citizens celebrating in the streets after the plane bombing should have all foreign aid from us cut off. Immediately. Jerry Pournelle had the unique notion of bulldozing the neighborhoods in which that was known to have happened, sowing the ground with salt, and building a monument to the victims. Perhaps a trifle extreme, but it would be effective. Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, Thomas, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.

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