Post #102,562
5/19/03 11:22:35 AM
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Pvt. Lynch revisionism debunked
[link|http://www.wilbursblog.blogspot.com/2003_05_11_wilbursblog_archive.html#94525234|Another tortured conspiracy theory begins to unravel]
Excerpt:
Now, a few firearms facts for the uninitiated.
American troops use three main infantry weapons.
First, there is the M16A2, a modern derivative of the old Vietnam era M16.
Secondly, there is the M4 carbine, a shortened version of the M16, often used by special forces troops.
Third, there is the Minimi Light Machine Gun.
None of these weapons can be converted from firing blanks to live, or back again, in a speedy manner.
Blank ammunition, when fired in these three weapons, is not powerful enough to force the weapons mechanism through its full cycle of operations. Because there is no live projectile, the build up of gas in the barrel is much less. When the weapon fires, there is no way that the mechanism will re-cock and chamber a fresh round.
Fire a blank round, and the weapon will stop firing after the first round is expended.
This would clearly be a daft situation when training with blank ammunition, so for training situations, a blank firing attachment (BFA) is used. The BFA consists of a cumbersome mechanical device bolted on to the end of the barrel. This restricts the amount of gas escaping, giving the weapon mechanism enough power to re-cock and re-chamber.
The BFA is awkward to get into place and even more difficult to remove. Frequently, it requires the use of pliers or some similar tool to affect its removal. After pro-longed firing with blank ammunition, the BFA is so hot that it must be left to cool before it can be removed.
This has a safety advantage in infantry training. It makes it much harder to confuse live ammunition with blank.
Now, back to the BBC report.
According to their witness, blanks where fired during the assault for dramatic effect.
If this where so, the American troops would be put in an awkward situation. Suppose, in the midst of this staged event, some Iraqi troops or Fedayeen irregulars appeared? How would they defend themselves? Clearly, converting the weapons from blank to live, in the heat of a battle, would be disastrous. It would take, at best, 2-3 minutes to remove a BFA, then vital more seconds in order to replace the belt or magazine of blank ammunition with live. In the dark, it would be very easy to get the blank and live rounds mixed up, too.
It is very hard to imagine how any Special Forces soldiers would agree to enter a combat zone with their weapons primed for blank ammunition.
Things are looking bad for the BBC\ufffds story, but it gets worse. Much worse.
The BFA is large and brightly coloured. It\ufffds a safety feature; a visible way of proving in training that no one is pointing live ammunition at you by mistake.
I don\ufffdt have the video footage of the rescue to hand, but I do recall seeing it. I didn\ufffdt see any weapons sporting BFAs.
I say:
I'm not an expert in the matter of shooting blanks. On rare occasions I aim and miss, sometimes I fire just to flush the quarry, sometimes I wing the target, frequently I hit it dead on. But I rarely shoot blanks, and never on purpose.
So I'll defer to the mopey embittered types here. What's it like to fire [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/board/search/?field_searchUser=23&field_searchSubject=&field_searchContent=seriously&field_searchSignature=&field_searchForum=47&field_boardid=1&submit_ok%3Amethod=Search|massive quantities of blanks]?
---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. Victory was the answer - to a great many problems. When the facts speak for themselves, only a fool insists on having a debate. The future is leaving the station, the US is at the throttle, and the Left isn't on board. [link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
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Post #102,564
5/19/03 11:27:00 AM
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Ooh, a *BLOG*.
Now THERE's an authoritative source.
You'll be linking to the K5 diary section next.
Peter [link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire] [link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal] [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #102,566
5/19/03 11:30:15 AM
5/19/03 11:30:38 AM
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I don't doubt the fact in this instance though...
assuming that our troops brought in those 3 combat weapons (after all, those eye-witnesses can't be expected to know our troops combat weapons) - it would make sense that they weren't firing blanks.
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Post #102,628
5/19/03 6:46:58 PM
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Consider the earlier reporting
she was shot, severely wounded in an ambush
we know now that she was not shot (unless her family is lying)
she was in an Iraqi hospital
she didn't die from whatever treatment they did or didn't give her
the operation to rescue her was a success
the known facts seem closer to the BBC/Iraqi version than the Bush version
A
PS for Ashton - the BBC claims made the front page of my local paper a couple days ago along with administration denials
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
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Post #102,745
5/20/03 10:14:07 AM
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Ah...but consider the facts....
The question is whether or not they were shooting "blanks".
No one seems to argue that the solders entered guns a-blazin'.
The argument (offered by the Iraqies) is that they were firing blanks "at nobody". The other side seems to argue that they weren't firing blanks and therefore must be shooting at "evil Iraqies."
However, it is possible that they were shooting live rounds "at nobody".
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Post #102,746
5/20/03 10:21:42 AM
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I find that hard to believe
However, it is possible that they were shooting live rounds "at nobody".
Sheet rock wouldn't stop the bullets, so the troops would have no idea of what would/could be hit, therefore, no target, no firing.
Concrete would cause richocets. Again no target, no firing.
Only time we were told to use covering fire was on open terrain, outside where only enemy would be located.
Anyone here with recent "house-to-house" combat training?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #102,608
5/19/03 3:59:58 PM
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Since it reads as a Hollywood production,
Why not bring in Hollywood weapons? They seem to fire forever without reloading, nor causing serious bodily injury.
And technically, only one soldier would have to be firing blanks. The rest of the unit would be loaded and ready for defense.
If their intel was adequate, then they would have known that there were no Iraqis on site.
Many scenerios to play with. Give each troop one blank, w/o BFA. Each fires one blank, clears weapon and ready for combat. Bunch of blanks fires, no damage do, Hollywood gets its script.
Sorry, myth not debunked.
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@attbi.com|Joe]
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Post #102,645
5/19/03 7:52:57 PM
5/19/03 11:23:51 PM
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Re use of blanks
First question that comes to my mind is how would a witness really know the difference ? - one way they might know is if there were no bullet holes anwhere but there were shots fired (inside).
I agree re the point made about recycling the gas pistons of the mentioned weapons but when we (Air Force) used blanks in similar weapons we had to fit a special plug to the barrel that allowed some gas to escape but left enough gas to cycle the piston & reload mechanism. This attachment was clamped over the barrel of the rifle. The excess gas exited through the muzzel flash elimination slots at the tip of the barrel.
Just to add impressions on reporting 'facts'. I had been in Manila just after a major coup there (when Major 'Gringo' Hosnan tried to lead a coup against Cory Aquino's govt). In the Makati district, several weeks later, there were bullet marks in many walls of buildings - very clear evidence of a lot of shooting.
Also was in Tienanmen just after the infamous 'Tienanmen Incident' & whilst walking round the square was completely puzzled at the lack of bullet pit marks allowing that our press had painted a picture of 3000+ dying there. There appeared to be no new brick work on the bulidings but there were some new flagstones at one corner of square. It was later during further research that I learned that the actual shooting and most deaths had not happened in Tienanmen square at all but in the Muxidi district (at the Muxidi overpass) and also several students died outside the university.
The point I am making here is that sometimes events are inaccurately described or portrayed, but that also doesn't mean they didn't happen. It can be difficult filtering the 'noise'. As for debunking the BBC report, the guns story in BLOG does nothing of the sort. It merely raises the issue of were blanks really used and of the problems in firing blanks in gas piston rifles. My military experience was that we had special attachments that allowed us to shoot blanks in them so it could be argued that I have just debunked the BLOG article. Both positions assume the eyewitness knew what he was talking about in saying blanks were used. That in turn is dependant on the reported words of the Iraqi witness being accurate.
But as always, we are likely to believe what we want & the facts don't always play a role in our beliefs. I lean toward the BBC/Iraqi story as being more credible that *anything* that came out of the US on the topic.
Cheers
Doug Marker

Edited by dmarker
May 19, 2003, 11:23:51 PM EDT
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Post #102,743
5/20/03 10:07:08 AM
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Re: Since it reads as a Hollywood production,
Exerpted from a salon.com satirical NBC interoffice "memo" re "Saving Private Lynch": But -- and this is the wildest part, as Dr. Harith al-Houssona told the Guardian and the Toronto Star, two days before the American raid, a few of the senior hospital staff attempted to send Jessica back to the Americans in an ambulance. "I told her I will try and help you escape to the American Army," he said, "but I will do this very secretly because I could lose my life." They bundled her into an ambulance and instructed the driver to take her to the U.S. checkpoint, just a kilometer away. "But when the ambulance got within 300 meters, they began to shoot," said Dr. al-Houssona. "There wasn't even a chance to tell them, 'We have Jessica. Take her.'" ... Three days after the raid, an American military doctor showed up at the hospital. He came, he said, to thank them for the superb surgery.
"You do realize you could have just knocked on the door and we would have wheeled Jessica down to you, don't you?" Dr. Mudhafer Raazk replied.
Which raises another ticklish question: According to two different reporters, the day before, the raid, a waiter from Nasiriya's al-Diwan restaurant is approached near the hospital by U.S. Special Forces with an Arabic interpreter, and they ask him if any Iraqi troops are still in the hospital. "And I say, 'No, they're all gone,'" the waiter replied.
There's more: Fox News reports that, to confirm Jessica's location, "officials with the Defense Intelligence Agency equipped and trained an Iraqi informant with a concealed video camera. On the day of the raid, the informant walked around the hospital, videotaping entrances and a route to Lynch's room."
If true, wouldn't the military planners have known there were no Iraqi forces inside the hospital when they made the raid? Were the slam-bang commando tactics mostly for show? According to different interviews with the doctors, there were anywhere from one to three cameramen in uniform with the raiding team.
Could we be making a made-for-television movie about a made-for-television movie?
These days, when told of stories that Lynch was abused while in their care, the hospital staff are outraged. Said Nurse Shinah: "This is a lie. But why ask me? Why don't you ask Jessica what kind of treatment she received?"
In fact, the Iraqi accounts of good treatment for Pvt. Lynch were corroborated by Pam Nicolais, a cousin serving as a spokesman for the family, in an interview with the Herald Dispatch in Huntington, W.Va. "That goes along with what Jessi told us," she told the paper.
Yet the same day, Fox News ran the story that Jessica can't remember anything that happened after her unit was ambushed through her 10 days of captivity. "She basically has amnesia and has mentally blocked out the horrible things we strongly believe she went through," one official told Fox.
So there you are, Marvin -- one of the messiest story lines I've ever had to deal with. Over to you. [link|http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/05/16/pvt_lynch/index.html|http://www.salon.com..._lynch/index.html] (As someone else has said, you know the drill: sit through ad, read piece and remainder of day's issue at leisure--or pay $30 and spare self ads; keep salon.com a going concern. I recommend latter.)
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
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Post #102,758
5/20/03 11:09:21 AM
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Don't try confusing them with facts
never works
A
Play I Some Music w/ Papa Andy Saturday 8 PM - 11 PM ET All Night Rewind 11 PM - 5 PM Reggae, African and Caribbean Music [link|http://wxxe.org|Tune In]
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