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New The reason for the terrorist attacks (in a nutshell)
Well here goes. This is what I'm sorta concluding is the quick and dirty reasons we have been attacked. (using info from PBS, CNN, ABC, CBS and IWETHEY)

During the Gulf War we put troops on Saudi Arabian soil and Osama bin Laden, a son of a wealthy party member, viewed this as an assault on Islamic land. He viewed the Americans as being there to protect oil interests, not justice. He claims the U.S. supports governments (not people, especially of the Islam faith). The Saudi government kicked him out. He used his money to try to create an Islamic state [his main goal in this terrorist attack]. He buddied up with poor countries (Sudan, etc) until he could find a place to build his "vision".

Now he is trying to start a Jihad against America and take over Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Who is helping him is unknown at this time.

P.S. I now this analysis is possibly incorrect so I am asking for the wisdom of others to help enlighten me. I need to know why these terrorists keep murdering Americans. I want to find a solution to the problem. I want to see America continue to stand for Freedom, Justice and Liberty. I'd like the world to join US.
Expand Edited by brettj Sept. 21, 2001, 11:44:15 PM EDT
New Perhaps he simply likes explosions and death
Some people simply get off on simple things, and trying to find complex reasons takes one nowhere. The religion is just an internal excuse to get boom and death.

At least it is one possibility.

________________
oop.ismad.com
New Too Much American Movie?
Or Doom/Quake/Unreal Tournament?

New "Gironimo"?
That is what it is going to be like finding him in Afgh. One has to search every bolder by hand just about. I bet he will dress like one of the natives and slip into a refugee camp.

________________
oop.ismad.com
New Some say he left at least 4 days ago...
E.g. [link|http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/21-09-2001/main/main2.htm|this] report from Pakistan. It's a rather childlike explanation, IMO...

I heard a report on the radio a few days ago from someone who was convinced that bin Laden hadn't been in Afghanistan for a while due to the relatively opulent conditions he was usually shown in - it's tough to live surrounded by books, perfumed, in immaculate clothing, etc., if you're hiding in a cave...

A couple of highly unpleasant scenerios:

1. Bin Laden isn't in Afghanistan, but we send in troops looking for him. The western troops suffer severe casualties with little to show for it.

2. Bin Laden is holed up in a city in Afghanistan. We send in troops looking for him after highly selective bombing. No western press accompanies the operation. There are actually few Afghan civilian casualties, but the Taliban and their alles tell the world of thousands of civilians killed due to indiscriminant attacks by the west.

I hope neither come to pass.

If there is an attack on the Taliban and bin Laden, I hope we get it right.

Cheers,
Scott.
New New O'Reilly book? Lemming on the cover?..............Sorry
New How does the destruction of Buddhist shrines by the Taliban
... fit into these murders?

Any ideas?
New It's complicated.
I'm no expert on this stuff...

Without reading a biography of the head Mullah, it's hard to know why he ordered the Buddahs destroyed. [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:PdL8MPhRMd0:www.supportersofshariah.org/eng/asap/smashing.html+Afghanistan+buddah&hl=en|Here's] a story attempting to justify it (from Google's cache).

I don't think the Taliban is too interested in America's wrath, while bin Laden clearly is. I think they're most interested in controlling Afghanistan with an iron fist. They enjoy bin Laden's support, and protect him in turn. So I don't personally think that the Taliban was directly involved with the attacks on 9/11.

They certainly appear to have protected bin Laden for years, so in that respect they are responsible for bin Laden's actions.

Best of luck trying to figure this stuff out....

Cheers,
Scott.
New I thought that was simple...
the taliban don't believe in idolatry...no idols of any kind. The buddist statues would represent idols and therefore must be destroyed.

Unless there's more that I don't know about.

New Let's take this a bit farther.
The Taliban get rid of Idols first, preparing to create a true Islamic state, then they get rid of everything and everyone else that doesn't fit their view of how things should be. Oops, they are already killing their own before they took out the idols. When will it end?
New Not sure what you mean...
Afganistan has been in a civil war for quite some time. So of course they're killing one another.

The reaction to the idols are part of their (taliban) stated beliefs, so their reaction is not surprising. I believe it's because of a hatred of Buddism. The taliban don't seem to care if it's Hindu or even Christian symbols, they will tear them down.

New The Afghan tribes didn't destroy the idols until the Taliban
... got into power and bin Laden likely convinced them to destroy all things non-Islamic. They apparently kill people now with beards that are too short. They have stopped women from working or showing their face. They have murdered people that show any sign of support for Western views. Now they have apparently decided to start murdering Americans as well as their own, both in Muslem countries and now in the U.S.

What I am suggesting is that the signs suggest that Osama bin Laden is starting his evil-minded Jihad and is using poor/hopeless people as his puppets. He already brain-washes all who enter his terrorists camps (or kills those that don't fall in line).

P.S. Did you watch CNN last night: "Behind the Veil"?
I managed to watch most of the scenes but it wasn't easy watching cold-blooded murder. CNN will replay this 1 hour presentation at 7 PM ET tonight.
New Real tolerant of other religions?
Destroying the shrines/temples/idols of other religions will not make that group very popular with the religions that had those shrines/temples/idols.

Picking up the pieces of my broken life.
New Do you mean like..
The Spanish Conqistadores VS the Aztecs, Olmecs et al?

Or the Catholic Church Corp. building their edifices with premeditation: on the mounds of destroyed temples in Mexico and south?

Or the fate of N. American natives, their burial grounds desecrated and Totems destroyed (along with most of their tribes)? And until quite recently - the survivors under BLM - forbidden to speak their native languages, at least in or around BLM 'school'.

ie what's good for the goose / gander.

Why are you perpetually *Shocked* when others go where.. we have gone before? Bad history teacher? Missed that semester? It is what homo-saps Do. Periodically. The Winners natch.


Ashton
New Reasons for terrorism
Not, as noted before, excuses.

Where to f*ing start...

Well, first there were the Crusades. :-) [No, that's important!]

The Brits had most of the Middle East as part of the Em-pah up until WWII. One of the things they did was the Balfour Declaration, which among other things was the first notion of the State of Israel. That was in 1917, and what they were trying to do was get Jewish support in WWI. The Arabs... reacted badly :-) Some Jews tried to move to Palestine, purchasing land and homes there, and the Arabs killed some and ran most of the rest out. The Brits tried to protect them, but failed.

Then came WWII and the "final solution". Note that, at the time, the U.S. was only faintly less anti-Semitic than the Nazis; at one point a shipload of Jewish refugees was trying to find a place to land, and nobody would accept them, especially the U.S. -- after the war, embarrassed by the treatment the Jews had gotten and their tacit acceptance of same, the Allies decided to implement the Balfour Declaration and set up the State of Israel in Palestine.

As far as the Arabs were concerned this was just an extension of the Crusades. The Crusaders set up governments in the Holy Land, with taxes and the whole bit; from the Arab point of view, Israel is just the latest in a succession of Crusader States. The Arab states in the vicinity told the Arabs living in Palestine to get out, so they could have a clear field to wipe out the Jews and eliminate Israel. They failed miserably.

The Palestinians became an embarrassment. The Arab states couldn't let them go home; there was every possibility that the Jews would live up to their declarations of religious freedom and civil rights, and that would eliminate the Arabs' justification for wiping Israel out. On the other hand, the Arab states couldn't accept the Palestinians themselves; for one thing, there were too many of them for comfort, and for another, if Palestinians disappeared as a people, there would again be little justification for hostility toward Israel. The Palestinians sat in their camps, broke, homeless, and hopeless, and festered. One of the reasons the Palestinians are so nasty is that they are simply irrelevant to the rest of the conflict, except as symbols -- heads on poles to excite the rest of the faithful -- and they know it.

Along about this time the mullahs [Islamic equivalent of a parish priest, more or less] noticed that Western ways were starting to corrupt the young. Civil rights for women, beard-shaving, and secular authority were creeping up on their powers and privileges. The mullah of a mosque in a poor town in Islamic lands is the final authority on most anything; many of them didn't want to give that up, and they began preaching "Islamic Fundamentalism", a direct analogue of Christian Fundamentalism here and in Europe.

In Iran, then called "Persia", the Soviet Union was sponsoring a fairly successful Socialist reform. The CIA went in, eliminated the Socialists [with substantial help from the locals, not all of whom liked the idea] and set the Pahlevis on the throne of Iran. The Pahlevis were "enlightened despots", who ruled by decree and started forcing Westernization -- cars, women's dress, TV, and all the other things Ashton bemoans :-) The secular government of Iran simply ignored the mullahs and what might be called the Church authority. This threatened the Iranian Islamic clerics' powers and privileges, and they reacted with hostility, and began picking up Islamic Fundamentalism.

Then the United States started seriously extracting oil from the region, especially Saudi Arabia, and that started really bringing Westernization to the Islamic world. How ya gonna keep 'em down on the oasis after they've seen Houston? :-) Islamic Fundamentalism got a boost. The Sons of Ibn Saud [who aren't fundamentally any nicer than the Shah] boosted it further, in order to maintain their own power in Saudi Arabia. Westerners in Saudi Arabia had [and still have] to live in compounds and obey Islamic customs if they venture out; this makes it harder for the U.S. oil companies [who paid for the surveys that found the oil, the wells to extract it, and and and] to simply assert posession. The Saudis also started supporting Fundamentalists elsewhere, and they had lots of oil income to do that with.

Meanwhile Israel was being successful, with the highest standard of living in the region. That was a horrid affront, and the Arab states were properly affronted. Since the Fundamentalists had as their basic thesis that Westernization was bad, and the Jews were importers of Westernization and infidels to boot, they preached that Israel had to be eliminated -- which resonated nicely with the perception among non-Fundamentalists of Israel as a Crusader State.

I don't think anyone here is unimaginative enough to be unable to figure out the rest of it; the details really don't matter. Then along came Osama bin Ladin. Up to that time, things were moving; glacially slowly, but moving. bin Ladin is primarily an agitpropper, a Hitler; he makes great speeches that make Arabs feel good about themselves and their power. If he believes anything it isn't known, but he makes a great show of supporting Fundamentalism, because he thinks [so far quite correctly] that by doing so he can get the Fundamentalists behind him. His goal is to be Saladin, 2000 model -- the Maximum Ruler of the World Islamic State.

There's lots more, but that's enough here.
Regards,
Ric
New But, wait! There is Sadam, the Saladin, 1990 model.
And there are the Israeli fundamentalists, making "facts on the ground" with their "settlements" at any price.

I believe we have recently paid the price for Israeli sins. God (if there was one), protect us from our friends.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Re: Reasons for terrorism
That was an excellent rendition of how we got to be so "loved" by the Muslims. The Arabs, in particular, because the populations are so wretchedly poor, must keep some dream. That dream is to return to dear old days of yore when they ruled (what they think of as) the world. I'm a little unclear but that dream, if they were to check it out, would be a Turkish dream because the Ottoman empire that arose ruled them like slaves.

In addition to that, populations at large really want to be free. The U.S. has a tendency to support the status quo because a good business climate demands stability. That means we've supported some pretty despicable regimes. The M. Fundies (and their apologists in the West) get this into their blood and somehow the U.S. is behind every throne and government. I think the U.S. has an attitude that if the people didn't like their government, they'd be like us in 1777 and start their own revolution. Of course, if you are supporting the status quo, you are not on the side of revolutionaries.

There is a dangerous course the West could take if it were to give up the fixation on oil, and give the Arabs what they claim they want. We could push over the Saudi royal family, a bunch of corrupt people who should be first up against the wall. And do the same for Egypt, etc. We could push for democracies.

And the first thing that would happen is the Fundies would act like Hitler, get elected, and then forget about democracy.

There are at least two possible outcomes: (1) the people get so disgusted with the religious storm troopers that they become like Iran. In another generation, I'm willing to be the mullahs will be out of business. (2) the Fundies become essentially like Saddam's regime, out for world power based on nuclear, biological, and chemical means. I do not believe the Fundies are anything more than the creepiest dictators have always used to gain power --- find out what people say they want and use it to gain that power.

By the way, who was the idiot who claimed history was essentially over a few years ago?
Gerard Allwein
New Thanks. This answer's part of my question below.
But there are other people than Muslums that dislike our support of Israel.
How many are involved in this attack I haven't figured out yet.
New Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary

There is sufficient there to argue the case. Of course it is a quick summary but all the major issues you hit on can be backed up with a lot of supporting detail.

The other really big factor that adds to the points raised is the emergence of Arab nationalism in the late 1800s/ early 1900s and how it was blunted by the powers of the day due to the realisation that oil would become a critical commodity.

Some examples of British actions in protecting oil interests include the creation of Kuwait which is an artificial country created out in the desert and chopped off from greater Iraq & handed to a loyal tribe (now filthy rich - benevolent dictators). Then there is Saudi & the UAE ..... Dutch, British & US oil interests played a hand there, but these countries now have their destinies in their own hands, providing no radical Arab decides to sieze control of most or all the oil fields to use as a weapon against others (such as us).

Fact is that oil was nothing to the Arabs before west found a way to exploit it & providing they get a 'fair' reward for its use - that should be ok. As best as I can tell the Arabs get very handsomely rewarded for selling it to the west.

If it now transpires that they want to manipulate it instead of the west then I say give it back to them *but* not until we have found an alternative - up until that time we need to protect the flow.

The other issues about Israel are that it is the only practising democracy in the region. All the cuntries surrounding it are run by dictators. In one sense it shines as a beacon of advanced democracy and how it could work if given a fair chance.
The bits about how the Palestinians are the whipping post for Arab desire to destroy Israel, can be fairly debated except you won't find many Arabs who can debate it rationally. Most of them have completely forgotten how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem(?), exhorted his fellow Arabs in the 1940s to drive the Jews into the ocean & kill then all - but to flee from them when they couldn't achieve the 1st goal.

Cheers

Doug Marker




New Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary

There is sufficient there to argue the case. Of course it is a quick summary but all the major issues you hit on can be backed up with a lot of supporting detail.

The other really big factor that adds to the points raised is the emergence of Arab nationalism in the late 1800s/ early 1900s and how it was blunted by the powers of the day due to the realisation that oil would become a critical commodity.

Some examples of British actions in protecting oil interests include the creation of Kuwait which is an artificial country created out in the desert and chopped off from greater Iraq & handed to a loyal tribe (now filthy rich - benevolent dictators). Then there is Saudi & the UAE ..... Dutch, British & US oil interests played a hand there, but these countries now have their destinies in their own hands, providing no radical Arab decides to sieze control of most or all the oil fields to use as a weapon against others (such as us).

Fact is that oil was nothing to the Arabs before west found a way to exploit it & providing they get a 'fair' reward for its use - that should be ok. As best as I can tell the Arabs get very handsomely rewarded for selling it to the west.

If it now transpires that they want to manipulate it instead of the west then I say give it back to them *but* not until we have found an alternative - up until that time we need to protect the flow.

The other issues about Israel are that it is the only practising democracy in the region. All the cuntries surrounding it are run by dictators. In one sense it shines as a beacon of advanced democracy and how it could work if given a fair chance.
The bits about how the Palestinians are the whipping post for Arab desire to destroy Israel, can be fairly debated except you won't find many Arabs who can debate it rationally. Most of them have completely forgotten how the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem(?), exhorted his fellow Arabs in the 1940s to drive the Jews into the ocean & kill then all - but to flee from them when they couldn't achieve the 1st goal.

Cheers

Doug Marker




New Re: Reasons for terrorism
A very interesting article [link|http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/09/23/stiusausa01024.html|http://www.sunday-t...sa01024.html]
Here are some relevant quotes:
"Or consider what Elisabetta Burba, an Italian journalist, reported for The Wall Street Journal from Beirut. She saw suited, coiffed professionals cheering in the streets. Then she went into a fashionable cafe. "The cafe's sophisticated clientele was celebrating, laughing, cheering and making jokes, as waiters served hamburgers and Diet Pepsi. Nobody looked shocked or moved. They were excited, very excited," she writes.
"Ninety per cent of the Arab world believes that America got what it deserved," she is told. "An exaggeration?" she comments. "Rather an understatement."
...
So at the most basic level America is loathed simply because she's on top. The world leader is always trashed simply for being the leader.
...
The primary crime is blasphemy against the holiest Islamic soil. One widely circulated picture of two women GIs in a Jeep, their shirts unbuttoned to their waists, driving across the Arabian desert, was enough to inflame the sensibilities of thousands of devout Muslims and to fling the most unstable of them into the arms of the extremists. They had a point but not one that justifies murder."
New The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place.
And unless someone is really good at framing people, most signs point to bin Laden and the Taliban leaders. The German connection is the part I don't yet understand.
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/22/inv.embassy.bombings.attorneys/index.html|Attacks seen to echo embassy bombings]

(CNN) -- As authorities piece together the puzzle that is the team of terrorist hijackers, attorneys who represented some of those found guilty in the 1998 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, see the fingerprints of Osama bin Laden's worldwide terrorist network in the attacks on Washington and New York.

The August 7, 1998, bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed 224 people, including 12 Americans. Bin Laden, a dissident Saudi-born millionaire, was among those indicted by a U.S. District Court in New York, although he was never captured and remains atop the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List.
New How do the Jewish people fit into the picture?
Who might not like America's support of Israel?

Is it somehow related to what is going on?
New Osama bin Laden quotes.
The Sunday Charlotte Observer (2001/9/23), "Perspective" section, "Osama bin Laden - Know Your Enemy" article, has published some quotes from bin Laden made to the US press in the past.

[link|http://www.charlotte.com/observer/|Charlotte Observer] but ever changing content.

on ABC News in 1998:
"Your situation with Muslims in Palestine is shameful, if there is any shame left in America. ...Our battle against the Americans is far greater than our battle was against the Russians."

Time Magazine 1999/1/11 excerpts:
"Those that sympathize with the infidels - such as the PLO in Palestine, or the so called Palestinian Authority - have been trying for tens of years to get back some of their rights. They have laid down arms and abandoned what is called 'violence' and tried peaceful bargaining. What did the Jews give them? They did not get even 1% of their rights."

"Hostility toward America is a religious duty, and we hope to be rewarded for it by God" ...

The Palestinian situation is part and parcel of bin Laden motivations.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Thanks. Here is a LA Times link.

[link|http://www.charlotte.com/observer/natwor/docs/govern0923.htm|
Taliban alternative could be worse]
Country's political future must be planned as carefully as war

By PAUL WATSON
Los Angeles Times

PESHAWAR, Pakistan -- Endless war has reduced Afghanistan to ruin and has killed or forced out so many millions of people that only the desperate and the extreme remain. It is a country suffering a critical shortage of credible leaders.

If a U.S.-led force were to attack Afghanistan and the ruling Taliban movement became the latest in a succession of regimes to fall, it would stir up a cesspool of drugs, guns and terror that could only be avoided if the country's political future were mapped out as carefully as the targets of war, experts here warn.
New Re: And therein lies the biggest dilemma

Taliban toughness brought some stability to Afghanistan. Same is happening in Somalia.

When these tough Islamic & Sharia law rulers are removed, they are usually replaced by drug dealing feuding warlords (in these depressed countries).

Also Brett, in the initial post in this thread you mention that 'Bin Laden wants to take over Afghanistan'. Truth is that Bin Laden (thru Taliban) already had taken over Afghanistan & achieved *his* goal of using this as a springboard training ground for movements being set up to do same in other former Soviet states bordering Afghansitan & incl Pakistan & Indonesia & including northern China.

Problem for us is that, as you say, he hates US because they are stationed in Saudi - home of Mecca.

Bin Laden is not a cleric nor does he lead the Muslim faith. For that reason he has no right to call a fatwa against US.

Bin Laden is an evil enemy of the US who wilst not having his finger on the actual trigger, is providing the infrastructure to train the trigger pullers who do the actual deeds & fullfil his desire to attack the US.

Any normal Muslim would never recite the following ...

Allah and the Kor'an permits us to murder unarmed airline passengers
Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder unsuspecting women and children
Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder other muslims working in or visiting US target sites
Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder non-US visitors & workers to US target sites
Allah and the Ko'ran permits us to murder Jews working or visiting US target sites

BUT - a good number of Muslims put it differently - they say

America got what it had coming !!! - anyone saying that should be asked to recite the above because truth is, that is what they seem to be saying when they argue that the attacks were in the *slightest* way justifiable.....

Cheers

Doug Marker


New This is starting to look like a Hitler repeat?
Where some hate-filled person declares death to other groups of people.

Hitler feed off of the poverty of the people he brain-washed.

The similarites are errie and morbid.

P.S. Thanks for mentioning that bin Laden already "rules" Afghanistan.
His victory over the Russian has emboldened him significantly when fighting super-powers and poor countries alike.
New Uh, that's not how it was, is it?
Brett Jayess writes:
...bin Laden already "rules" Afghanistan. His victory over the Russian has emboldened him significantly...
Osama bin Laden didn't beat the Russians.

I don't think even the Taliban did, before he came to them.

What the Taliban have won is the *civil* war in Afghanistan, that got going *after* the Afghanis had kicked out the Russians -- once the common enemy was no longer there to unite them, the widely disparate factions inevitably turned on each other.

My own guess would be, the Taliban probably won this too pretty much without bin Laden's help -- sure, he may have contributed money for guns, but I've seen no reports that he's much of a guerilla leader; just a terrorist leader and agitator pandering to the more or less illiterate (and the difference is rather large, I think).

Who beat the Russians, if you want to attach that feat to a single name (which of course isn't really possible), was probably more than anyone else -- and, deeply ironically -- Ahmed Shah Massoud, the leader of the "Northern Alliance" that got bumped off by assassins -- apparently working for bin Laden -- just days before the attack in the US.

At least Massoud's was the name you heard most of on the news, when Afghanistan was mentioned (and the fight against the Soviets was still going on), for most (at least the second half) of the eighties -- long before anyone had heard of this bin Laden character.

Right?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
New Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ???

It really is stunning isn't, when we hear Bin Laden say how shameful US is in relation to Palestinian problems.

He ignores so many issues such as Israel being the only practising democracy in the region.

He ignores his own (Bin Laden's) depths of shame in supporting those who went killing many black africans just to get a few Americans.

Same again for all the innocents and non-US that were murdered in New York & Washington.

The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is.

A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith.

So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions.

Doug Marker

New Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion.
The Ko'ran is very very clear on who can be killed in a Jihad & is also just as clear on what a Jihad is.

A lot of the problem we have with Islam is that unlike the 3 major Christian churches - there is no central guiding authority who can praise or condemn the antics of a few demented or excessively radical followers of the faith.
So there is no central authority that can refute Bin Laden's position or actions.
While there are certain 'authorities' across the infinite spectrum which calls itself 'Christian' - so also is there *no* 'authority' universally recognized by all / even most of these diverse sects. (The Pope speaks for lots - hardly for all - nor are his orders obeyed by even a majority of Catholics, in many areas)

IMhO, the problem is fundamentalism whatever the sect. In each case the 'fundamental' refers to the ancient words of men, interpreted and translated by other men: packaged and sold to children and inculcated into their growing experience. The philosophical ideas, the difficulties even of definition of such lofty ideas as truth, let alone 'The Truth' - form no part of this conditioning process.

The Tee Vee program 60 Minutes, last night interviewed a couple Israeli captured and convicted wannabe-bombers: captured only because their bombs failed to explode. As backdrop were shown - the images, 'cartoons', speeches -- all creating the idea of the Bomber as being "living martyr" / precisely "walking dead" - an unconditional Super hero. 72 Virgins the reward for: the (usually) under-20 year old male living in a sexually repressive culture (!). Both these persons were ecstatic about their impending deaths, had made videos with symbolic backdrops - explaining their next action. Believed the promise that, "you won't die, but go immediately to your mansion of x000 rooms, your 70/72 virgins.. etc.". Still, as of the days old interview. Pure and simple brainwashing of 100% effectiveness. No longer human - a bio-weapon.

I see little difference among the Christian, Muslim or other fundamentalists - for these are each, persons inured to the peculiarity of their worldview, unconcerned with the ideas of all others - nor of the value of a life -- not aligned with their mindset. Period. There seem to be only differences in degree: how Far a fundamentalist will go, in enforcing his aims upon all others not-him. Islam is the extreme now - for being also the least powerful / sharing least in the World National Product = it's about material poverty. Period

Falwell is bin-Laden, but with currently more tempered means available to him and his ilk. So far. He is *Certain* "what God means for Us All to Do". But were the US in a chaotic internal condition? What then would Falwell, Robertson et al advocate.. to restore Murica to Righteousness, -- had he the temporary power to enforce his Dictats ??

So long as children *anywhere* are conditioned to accept mindlessly that, The Truth can be handed out; they have gotten it and: no bestial action is too extreme in the furtherance of This Truth: le plus sa m\ufffdme chose..

Organized religion assures that: at least some members of every church corporation - shall be nascent terrorists, given the means and opportunity to act. The enemy of every open society is the 'Belief': I Know what the One True God means for me to do next..



Ashton
New Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists...
that not only risk their own lives but those of their wives and children to stake out land for Israel in the those settlements. For God and country.

These folks are all the same.

[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0060916125/107-4874319-1066941|True Believer.]
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New But not someone's else wives and children
Also, they were rather secular lot, if I understand correctly. Add to that the recent holocaust: risks were everywhere anyway.
New Re: But not someone's else wives and children
I don't believe they are so secular in making "facts on the ground" and claiming their Biblical lands.

Sure Israel is a very risky place to be. But the level of risk in settlements is extremely high. They need to be protected by the IDF as well as being armed themselves. They can't travel to work or school unless under guard. Nor are they that safe in their enclaves with the Palestinian sniping and shelling that occurs sporadically.

My point is that they have set themselves and their families to be martyrs for their cause while at the same time enraging the Palestinians. They get to kill Palestinians, off and on, as a bonus. When mortars are used distinctions between men, women, and children vanish. These are the heroic Israelis. While not strictly suicidal, they are suicidal by proxy. Not much difference, the way I see it. These folks fuel the fire of hatred as much as the Palestinian suicide bombers. "I will kill you when I can and would rather die than not have my way." is the message of both.

It's a prescription for perpetual violence.

For both of them, it's a tragic way of life. I wish the US had not been dragged into it.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New So, your position is that...
...Falwell is a (potential?) mass murdering terrorist?
New Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment
where profit is defined to include not just money but power.

Absolutely. All that stops him is that he knows he'd get raided before he could get as much as he can by working the system.
----
Watch this space: Catch-22 quote will appear once I have the book in front of me.
New Speech != action...
I find this comparison of Falwell and bin Laden to be as stupid as Falwell's correlation of the tragedy with America's moral failing.

All it demonstrates is that one group of humans can pronounce another group as "evil", without needing a religious crutch upon which to lean. Simple innuendo and prognistication will suffice.
New The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability
of equally horrendous actions. The Will to enforce your fantasies on others is ever limited by the Power to do so.

As Mike observes - Falwell et al, currently lack the power to achieve that which (they have said repeatedly) they Know - is what Muricans Ought to Do = What God Wants\ufffd

No one can describe *what* floats around inside those pretty-little heads; I certainly do not claim to. Nor are we likely to find out. (If it's OK to bash gays, kill medical folk to save zygotes - what Else is it OK to kill, for God?) Nor are any 'social contracts' among humans valid - when you Speak for God. In such minds.

But as to their Certainties? Just listen to them a while. Yes, I see them as interchangeable in mindset; only the power is (currently) different.



Ashton
Check out Father Couglan, in the '20s, '30s, on radio - Murican home-grown wannabe Ayatollahs is *nothing new*
New Other Osama ignoring
As recently as May, I believe, Colin Powell was praising our then-recent foreign aid of some 40-50 million to Afghanistan.

We have aided Israel, yes.

We have spent hundreds of millions in aid to other countries in the region, too.

Yet they spit in our face.

I would move that any country with citizens celebrating in the streets after the plane bombing should have all foreign aid from us cut off. Immediately.

Jerry Pournelle had the unique notion of bulldozing the neighborhoods in which that was known to have happened, sowing the ground with salt, and building a monument to the victims. Perhaps a trifle extreme, but it would be effective.
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, Thomas, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
     The reason for the terrorist attacks (in a nutshell) - (brettj) - (37)
         Perhaps he simply likes explosions and death - (tablizer) - (3)
             Too Much American Movie? - (gdaustin) - (2)
                 "Gironimo"? - (tablizer) - (1)
                     Some say he left at least 4 days ago... - (Another Scott)
         New O'Reilly book? Lemming on the cover?..............Sorry -NT - (Another Scott) - (8)
             How does the destruction of Buddhist shrines by the Taliban - (brettj) - (7)
                 It's complicated. - (Another Scott) - (6)
                     I thought that was simple... - (Simon_Jester) - (5)
                         Let's take this a bit farther. - (brettj) - (2)
                             Not sure what you mean... - (Simon_Jester) - (1)
                                 The Afghan tribes didn't destroy the idols until the Taliban - (brettj)
                         Real tolerant of other religions? - (orion) - (1)
                             Do you mean like.. - (Ashton)
         Reasons for terrorism - (Ric Locke) - (6)
             But, wait! There is Sadam, the Saladin, 1990 model. - (a6l6e6x)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (gtall)
             Thanks. This answer's part of my question below. - (brettj)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - a pretty good QAD summary - (dmarker2)
             Re: Reasons for terrorism - (bluke)
         The pieces to the puzzle are falling into place. - (brettj) - (16)
             How do the Jewish people fit into the picture? - (brettj) - (15)
                 Osama bin Laden quotes. - (a6l6e6x) - (14)
                     Thanks. Here is a LA Times link. - (brettj) - (3)
                         Re: And therein lies the biggest dilemma - (dmarker2) - (2)
                             This is starting to look like a Hitler repeat? - (brettj) - (1)
                                 Uh, that's not how it was, is it? - (CRConrad)
                     Re: Osama bin Laden quotes - the US shame ??? - (dmarker2) - (9)
                         Problem not confined to Islam: organized religion. - (Ashton) - (7)
                             Ashton, don't be afraid to include the Zionists... - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                                 But not someone's else wives and children - (Arkadiy) - (1)
                                     Re: But not someone's else wives and children - (a6l6e6x)
                             So, your position is that... - (ChrisR) - (3)
                                 Only if it becomes profitable in the US environment - (mhuber) - (2)
                                     Speech != action... - (ChrisR) - (1)
                                         The comparison is about 'mindset' only, not probability - (Ashton)
                         Other Osama ignoring - (wharris2)

An experiment in Boredom Control run by the Illuminati.
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