Post #101,716
5/13/03 5:33:46 PM
5/13/03 5:35:33 PM
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Airlines have been underestimating our weight.
[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/13/politics/13PLAN.html|It might have caused a plane crash.] The Federal Aviation Administration today ordered airlines that fly planes with more than 19 seats to raise the assumed average weight of each passenger by 10 pounds and the assumed weight for each checked bag by an additional 5 to ensure that their planes are not overloaded.
The notice, which was sent to all airlines, gave them 90 days to adopt the new weight rules or to conduct their own surveys of passenger and luggage weight. The actions were prompted by the January crash of a US Airways commuter plane in North Carolina that may have been within current weight limits but may still have been overloaded. The National Transportation Safety Board is set to open hearings into that crash next week. Also, for whatever reason, that page gave me a popup in Mozilla - despite the fact that I have popups disabled. Weird.
After 9/11, Bush made two statements: 1. "Terrorists hate America because America is a land of freedom and opportunity." 2. "We intend to attack the root causes of terrorism."
Sounds like everything is going according to plan.
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Post #101,722
5/13/03 5:56:33 PM
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So? I've been understimating my weight for years . .
. . though I can't say I haven't crashed . .
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #101,727
5/13/03 6:06:36 PM
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Everyone who's surprised, raise your fat little hands
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #101,755
5/13/03 9:16:14 PM
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ROFL!
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Post #101,733
5/13/03 7:10:14 PM
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What's scary is...
If the crash was due to being overloaded - why was the safety margin so small? Are we taking our lives in our hands if someone who weighs 350 pounds gets on the commuter plane with us? :-/
...
Reading through the story on the second page, it sounds like there was a center of gravity issue, not really a weight issue per se. The same thing likely could have happened if everyone weighed 98 pounds if the baggage wasn't loaded right.
Regards, Scott.
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Post #101,743
5/13/03 7:46:17 PM
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Then it really WAS cockpit error - as mmoffitt
may confirm.
"Weight and balance" is IIRC among the most basic of the pilot's responsibilities, for all obv. physics reasons. I'd bet that the "max weight" figure is indeed conservative. But physics Is The Law.
Idiot. (or lied to by someone or someone's computer! entries) Pity,
Ashton
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Post #102,676
5/19/03 10:41:30 PM
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Indeed. This is mostly a "pilot error"
As much as it pains me to say that. The NTSB and the FAA typically try every trick to make sure that the "majors" (major airline carriers) are not at fault.
But, W/B computations are supposed to be done prior to every flight. The facts are these: your large jets (737, 747, 757, 767, 777, Airbuses, etc.) have on-board computers that calculate (as some one posted) w/b and C.G. These computers do a pretty good job. The problem with most of the smaller aircraft (mine included) is that the FAA standard "average weight" of a passenger, pilot or co-pilot is 170 pounds (coincidentally, the weight of one keg of beer). This weight for all us McDonald's fans in the US is way too low. The crash in Charlotte was on a small regional aircraft that would not have had the on-board computer to calculate w/b and c.g. So, it's entirely likely that the c.g. was aft of the c.g. limit. That's bad. Because if/when you stall, you can't get the nose down and you plummet back to earth.
The truth is, most piston powered aircraft can fly at about 20% above the published take-off weight on a day that is not-too-hot, not-too-humid. (Aside: before I bought my own airplane, I trained in a Cessna 150. With my instructor and me on board, we were already "overweight" by 10 pounds. Put full fuel in - as we did on several occasions - and we were about 130 pounds - roughly 25% - over gross. We never had a problem.). Most jets can fly WELL above the published take-off numbers.
If you're flying over-gross, you've got to be mighty damned careful. You simply cannot expect the rate-of-climb that you're used to, and your stall speed will increase. That might have contributed in this case - Charlotte has got all kinds of "noise-abatement" rules that cause aircraft to climb out at a steep angle. If you're flying out of there significantly over-gross and with an aft c.g., you could easily stall and be unable to recover.
So, who fscked up? If the pilots used "standard FAA passenger weight" they probably underestimated their true load. If most of the lardies were seated towards the back of the plane, this exacerbated the problem by shifting the c.g. aft, perhaps beyond the limit.
W/B computations are not at all difficult. The difficulty is that the "FAA standard passenger weight" is way too low. And, at least up until now, no one suggests making passengers "weigh in" before they board a small regional aircraft.
Again, the big, multi-million dollar jets DO NOT have this problem. So, don't be scared the next time you board a big jet and see a bunch of fat people. However, if you're flying a small (<20 passenger) turbo-prop and you see a lot of "big-un's", make damned sure they're all sitting towards the front of the plane. If they aren't, and they aren't being moved, take another flight! ;-)
bcnu, Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #102,680
5/19/03 10:50:13 PM
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Re: Indeed. This is mostly a "pilot error"
Yes - thing to worry about is the load shifting, because nothing was strapped down. Yes, it has happened - Miami, cargo jet, cargo shifted shortly after rotation and the plane went into a 60-70 degree nose up attitude, and stalled. Bad day. CVR indicates that the pilot was stunned and confused.
I'm sure commercial jets have to be able to get in the air with a full load and one or even two engine failures. I'd also guess they run them with small fuel margins to save a few pennies.
-drl
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Post #102,681
5/19/03 10:52:09 PM
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Fuel margins don't have to be big.
IFR flights require flight to destination, then alternate, with 30 minutes of fuel left when you land. You land a plane with less than 30 minutes left, you've got hell to pay - and maybe lose your ticket.
bcnu, Mikem
The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.
- Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
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Post #101,773
5/13/03 11:55:02 PM
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guesswork
what's scary is the amount of guesswork that goes into loading a plane. The trouble with averages is that most loads aren't average. So you build in a healthy safety margin. Ok, that saves lives, costs money and is susceptible to outliners. (Like, possibly, this case.)
How hard/expensive would it be to have three large pads on the runway apron. As the plan rolls over the pads the weight carried by each set of wheels is relayed to the pilot and recorded. A quick calculation based on plane type would allow an accurate determination of the cg. An informed go/no go decision can then be made. The information can also be used to improve loading of future cargos.
I've driven through highway weigh scales where the truck only has to slow down below a certain speed and the weight shows up on a big sign. I'm imagining something similar here. Thoughts?
Have fun, Carl Forde
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Post #101,776
5/14/03 12:53:53 AM
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GIYF
30 seconds with Google turns up [link|http://www.cas.honeywell.com/ats/products/weightbal.cfm|Weight and Balance System] from Honeywell. Seems as if your system's already been developed, if not deployed, with landing gear sensors, as I suspected (search was [link|http://www.google.com/search?q=commercial+aircraft+weight+balance+%22landing+gear%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N|commercial aircraft weight balance "landing gear"]). \r\n\r\n \r\nThe Honeywell Weight and Balance System (WBS) measures the aircraft gross weight and center of gravity (CG) using sensors mounted on aircraft landing gear. The gross weight is the sum of the weights on the wheels. The CG is calculated from the relative weights on the nose and main gears. A typical system consists of landing-gear-mounted deflection sensors, a calibration module containing all gear parameter information, a computer unit, a pitch attitude sensor, a flight deck display interface and a remote dedicated display unit for cargo loading. The sensors can be installed on current commercial transports without structural modifications. \r\n \r\n\r\n Google is your friend.
--\r\n Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n \r\n Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #101,794
5/14/03 7:46:49 AM
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WDYHASM
Seems as if your system's already been developed, if not deployed. Are you suggesting that we should take some of the money we've been pouring in to airport security for the past 20 years and divert it to fixing the problems that actually cause planes to crash?[1] What kind of terrorist sympathizer are you? [1] The money spent on installing passenger screening devices several years ago[2] would have more than paid for upgraded radar[3] at every airport in America. [2] In response to a crash that was caused by an employee[4] placing a bomb. [3] The kind that can detect wind shear.[5] [4] Yes, that means the passenger screening devices could not have prevented the event they were supposedly responding to. [5] Yes, that's what actually causes planes[6] to crash every year. [6] Note the plural. [7] I didn't mean to do this when I started, honest.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #101,905
5/14/03 5:56:29 PM
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nifty
Have fun, Carl Forde
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Post #101,966
5/15/03 12:10:14 AM
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Uh-oh
I most often fly into and out of Milwaukee.
Think about it.
---- Whatever
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Post #101,973
5/15/03 1:22:39 AM
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Too subtle for me. Hint?
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Post #101,976
5/15/03 1:36:01 AM
5/15/03 1:36:28 AM
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Well if you want to know....
See my edit history. :-)
Cheers, Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not" - [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
Edited by ben_tilly
May 15, 2003, 01:36:28 AM EDT
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Post #102,029
5/15/03 8:43:42 AM
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I think Cleveland or New Orleans would have been apropos. ;)
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