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New wharris forgets
While the settlements may have been founded before the Oslo thing, the Israelis have been agressively building and expanding them before, during, and after. Ronald Reagan urged Israel in 1983 to stop their aggressive settlement policy.
New The key question is then:
What did the Oslo agreements, or any other agreements, say about settlements?

No doubt it tends to be the fringe element who build settlements in such a risky place anyhow. Im sure that adds yet more gasoline to the fire.
________________
oop.ismad.com
New Settlements and occupied territory
" issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations: Jerusalem, settlements, ... (Interim Agreement, Article XVII)."

Therefore Israel is not breaking any qgreements.

The truth of the matter is that, according to international law, the Jews have the complete and unquestionable right to settle the territories of the West Bank and Gaza. Not a single enforceable international document exists that forbids them from settling these lands.

On the contrary, the only existing enforceable document actually
encourages Jewish settlement. This document was created on April 24,
1920 at the San Remo Conference when the Principal Allied Powers agreed
to assign the Mandate for the territory of Palestine to Great Britain.
By doing so the League of Nations "recognized the historical connection
of the Jewish people with Palestine" and established "grounds for
reconstituting their national home in that country." Article 6 of the
Mandate "encouraged \ufffd close settlement by Jews on the land," including
the lands of the West Bank and Gaza. There is nothing whatsoever in the Mandate that separates the West Bank and Gaza from the rest of the mandated territory. That means that the right of the Jews to settle the land spreads to the whole of Palestine. As a side note it is worth mentioning that the 76% of the territory of Mandated Palestine known today as Jordan, were not permanently exempt from
settlement by the Jews either. Article 25 only allowed to "postpone or
withhold application of [this] provision."

With the disbanding of the League of Nations, the rights of the Jews to
settle the territories of Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza, were not diminished. When in 1946 the United Nations was created in place of the League of Nations, its Charter included Article 80 specifically to allow the
continuation of existing Mandates (including the British Mandate). Article 80 stated that "nothing ... shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever \ufffd of any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties."

Then in November 1947 came time for Resolution 181, which recommended
the Partition of Palestine. Like all UN Resolutions pertaining to the
Jewish-Arab conflict it was not enforceable. It was simply a recommendation, and the Arab countries rejected it. If the resolution had been implemented maybe it would be possible to
argue that it replaced the San Remo Conference resolution, which had
legitimized the rights of the Jews to settle in any place in Palestine.
However, it was not only rejected by the Arabs, but in violation of the
UN Charter they launched a military aggression against the newly reborn
Jewish state thus invalidating the resolution. By the time of the cease-fire at the end of the War of Independence, there was still no other enforceable document pertaining to the rights of the Jews to settle the Land of Israel - they remained intact. Since no mandatory UN Resolution exists pertaining to the Arab-Israeli conflict, we are left with the San Remo Conference decision that governs land ownership in Palestine. That means that not a single enforceable
internationally valid document exists that prevents or prohibits the
Jews from settling anywhere in the West Bank and Gaza. Or, to put it differently, from the standpoint of international law FOR THE JEWS IT IS NOT AN OCCUPIED LAND.

This conclusion was confirmed not long ago by an unexpected (for
Israel) source. It is hard to argue with the fact that James Baker,
former US Secretary of State, was not the best friend of the Jewish
state. However, he categorically rejected the mislabeling of the lands
of Yesha. This happened at the Middle East Insight Symposium in
Washington on May 4, 1998. Hoda Tawfik, from the newspaper Al Ahram
asked him, "What do you think is right? That these are occupied Arab
territories and not disputed territories?" Baker replied, "They\ufffdre
clearly disputed territories. That\ufffds what Resolutions 242 and 338 are
all about. They are clearly disputed territories."

All of this means that when the Jews build settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, they are not building them on "occupied" territories. If one wants, one may call them "disputed" territories, as Baker did. However, this will still not change the fact that from the standpoint of international law it is the very land where the Jews were encouraged to settle.

And as a final note, it should not be surprising that the San Remo
Conference plays such an important role in this particular case. The
majority of the other players in the conflict: Egypt, Syria, Iraq,
Lebanon, Jordan, etc. gained sovereignty over their territories based on
the decisions of exactly the same conference.

New Brilliant rationalization for Greater Israel.
But, who asked the Palestinians? Are they chopped liver? Are we talking about a never settled wasteland on the moon? They've only been living in the area for a few hundred years. Are they irrelevant?

You've got a little problem there.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Palestine the wasteland
Actually your characterization of "Palestine" as a "wasteland" is quite accurate. Read any travel account to Palestine from the 1800's such as Mark Twain's. The one common thread is that Palestine was a wasteland with hardly any inhabitants. After the Jews started returning in the 1880's and the economy picked up Arabs started migrating in. For example National Geographic reported in one of the 1914 issues that the population of Jerusalem is given as 40,000 Jews, 13,000 Christians (half of whom were Europeans), and only 7,000 Muslims. Where are alll those Palestinians? A travel guide to Palestine and Syria, published in 1906 by Karl Baedeker brings out the same point that the Muslim population in the city of Jerusalem was minimal. Many of the facts that we get today have been greatly distorted and works such as these, especially the 1906 book outline quite clearly the statistics of that era and how we can interpret these facts and figures to be relevant in todays Mideast conflict. Did you know that Yasir Arafat was born in Cairo? How about the fact that 76% of the Palestine Mandate was give to the Arabs by the British in 1922 (what is now Jordan)?

Read the book from Time Immemorial by Joan Peters
New Re: Palestine the wasteland and Arafat the Egyptian.
I'll go along with Palestine having been somewhat of a wasteland. Of course the Bedouins of the region (including the Negev desert) managed to eke out an existence there for centuries. Had to keep moving though. Israel did make the deserts bloom, but guess who lost out in the deal?
Did you know that Yasir Arafat was born in Cairo?

Yes. I've read that, and you've mentioned it before. So what? If Arafat is has to be an Egyptian, you're not an Israeli, and I'm not an American.

As they say, "Home is where the heart is."
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New The significance of Arafat the Egyptian
is very clear. If Arafat was born in Cairo why does he have more right to the West Bank then I do? It shows that the Palsetinians are not people who were living in Palestine for hundreds of years and the Jews came and kicked them out. Rather, they migrated to Palestine after the Jews started rebuilding the land.
New Re: Palestine the wasteland
Well if Palestine was a wasteland then it follows that the Jews did not come in and throw out millions of Palestinians etc. The fact is if we look at other comparable situations they were all solved via integration or resettlement including:
1) At the conclusion in 1923 of the Greek-Turkish War, harsh treatment of Greek communities in Turkey caused large numbers of these Turkish Greeks to flee their homes. Because of this, the peace treaty between the two sides provided for a mutual exchange of populations \ufffd about 2 million Greeks who had been Turkish citizens were relocated to Greece, while about 500,000 Turks who had been Greek citizens were relocated to Turkey. The immoveable property left behind was seized by the respective Governments and was used, in part, to resettle the incoming refugees. (Eyal Benvenisti and Eyal Zamir, Private Claims to Property Rights in the Future Israeli-Palestinian Settlement, The American Journal of
International Law, April 1995, p 322)
2) The Potsdam Declaration imposed by the Allies following World War 2 provided for the transfer to Germany of approximately 15 million Germans, particularly from those parts of eastern Germany which after the war were allotted to Poland. Under the Declaration the German populations in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Austria were relocated to Germany, these German refugees lost title to the property they left behind, and no arrangements were made to compensate them for their losses. (Benvenisti and Zamir, p 322)
3) Settlement of the conflict between Hindus and Muslims in British India via division of the region into India and Pakistan required relocation of millions of people. Once again, immoveable property left behind by these refugees was seized by the respective governments to help settle the incoming refugees. (Benvenisti and Zamir, p323).

If the Arabs in 1947 had agrred to the Partition Plan there would have been no problems. If after 1948, the Arabs would have absorbed the 800,000 refugees again the conflict would have been over. The fact is that in the same time period Israel absorbed 800,000 Jewish refugees who were forced to flee Iraq, Morocco, Yemen, Egypt, Syria, etc.
New Who are the Palestinians?
There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land know as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the region. Overall, there are 22 Arab countries that cover more that 99 per cent of the land mass in the Middle East. Israel, the size of New Jersey, covers less that one per cent.

The only sovereign nation that has ever ruled over the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River is Israel. King David ruled over the Land of Israel 3,000 years ago, nearly 1,600 years before Muhammad was born. Since the Romans leveled the Temple 2,000 years ago, committed genocide against the Jews and declared that Jewish sovereignty would be no more, the Land of Israel was ruled by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and the by the British.
New And to sum it all up.
Palestine is a name given to the region by controlling outsiders.

The people that call themselves Palestinians, don't as such exist (they are just Arabs), and in any case, have no rights or claims to anything.

Very neat.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Show me otherwise
You yourself admitted that 100 years ago "Palestine" was desolate
New It takes incredible arrogance...
to deny anyone the right to have a name for who they are. Perhaps I have the problem of not understanding because I'm not one the Master Race, er "chosen people".

Using your logic -- 60 years ago there were no Israelis, only pockets of Jews here and there all over the world. Therefore, there is no Israel, only Arab lands occupied by Jews. Substituting "variables", it's the same argument you are using. It doesn't wash any more than your argument.

I do not deny Israel the right to exist and governing itself in a sane manner. Return the land occupied since the 1967 war, East Jerusalem included, and make peace with your neighbors. Don't quote and interpret for me UN resolutions. Israel ignores UN resolutions it doesn't like.

Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New They can call themselves Martians ...
for all I care. The name is irrevelant. The bottom line is that they have no historic connection with the land of Israel. The Jews onb the other hand do. We have been praying for 2000 years to return, this fact has been almost universally recognized. Read the Balfour declaration (from the British not exactly the most pro-Jewish group around) and all the other documents from that time. They all speak of the historic Jewish connection with the land. The Arabs have 99.6% of all the land in the Middle East why do they need any more?
New Palestinians: Israel simply is not yours
This is a great article which makes my point better then I have been making.
[link|http://www.suntimes.com/output/steinberg/cst-nws-stein09.html|http://www.suntimes...stein09.html]

New Hear ye, hear ye
Who knows how empty the sky is
In the place of a fallen tower.
Who knows how quiet it is in the home
Where a son has not returned.

-- Anna Akhmatova (1889-1966)
New "Gaza, West Bank, & E. Jerusalem are Spoils of War".
And you expect peace with that? Logically then, Israel can become the spoils of war to the folks that don't like the current state of affairs.

Might makes right. Yep.

And leveling the buildings of your enemy to the ground, because you can, is right too? It happens on a regular basis to Israeli foes.

Where have I seen that, lately?

Advancing civilization, one tactic at a time.
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
New Re: "Gaza, West Bank, & E. Jerusalem are Spoils of War".
The fact is in 1967, Israel offered everything back in return for peace. The Arabs responded with the famous 3 no's of Khartoum. The fact is that if you start a war and lose it you pay the price. Let us look at some historical examples:
The French took Alsace-Lorraine, in 1945 from Germany. Its consequent occupation must not be rewarded. "A full withdrawal for full peace" should operate here.
The US took much of the Southwest by force from Mexico, give it back.

New More facts about the "Palestinians"
Read this article: [link|http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=550|http://www.israelna....php3?id=550]

Here are some relevant quotes:
"Professor of history Rashid Khalidi, himself a Palestinian Arab admits that "Palestinian identity" was the last garb that the Arabs of Palestine tried on when all other possibilities where exhausted. It was shared "by a relatively restricted stratum and among them, as well as among the rural and illiterate majority of the population, the new sense of Palestinian identity competed and overlapped with Ottomanism and Arabism, as well as older religious, local and family loyalties."
...
"Julius Stone wrote in 1970 a must-read paper entitled "Self-determination and the Palestinian Arabs." His arguments are so clear and convincing that it is most effective simply to quote him profusely. He explains that "it twists and parodies both history and justice to present the Palestine issue as a struggle between the Jews of the world on the one hand and the Arabs of Palestine on the other, in which the Jews seized the major share."
Stone continues,
"The struggle was rather between the Arabs of the Middle East region (including some hundred thousand living in Palestine) and the Jews of the world, in which the Arabs took the lion\ufffds share from which in due course a dozen and more Arab states emerged. Neither at the time of distribution, nor for decades later, moreover, was there any identifiable Palestinian Arab people, much less any center of Arab cultural or political life in Palestine."

Rashid Khalidi. Palestinian Identity. Columbia University Press, 1998.
Julius Stone. Self-Determination and the Palestinian Arabs. From the book "Israel, the Arabs and the Middle East," Bantam Books, 1972.
New err blacks in South Africa?
where did they come from? Were they always there? Did they migrate frm elsewhere in greater and greater numbers because of jobs and shelter? Now they wish to kill all the whites and take their lands. Is this fair and good? Now in America you must also support La Raza the hispanic groups in the souther tier states that are coming here in great numbers illegally and want to secede the area's of their historic and numerically superior areas? You support the re-integration of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Texas with Mexico? Cool I didnt know you were for "No se habla espianol? Go back where you came from gringo!" Please extend to our hispanic neighbors the same courtesy you show the palestinians.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Re: err blacks in South Africa?
Now they wish to kill all the whites and take their lands. Is this fair and good?
Yes, that is kind of what Israeli zealots are doing. And, I don't think it's fair.

You're way ahead of me on La Raza. I've never heard of Hispanics wanting to re-claim US by out-populating the others state by state. It's difficult for me to believe that is likely. But, we'll see where NAFTA takes us. If Californians, in a democratic process, decide to integrate with Mexico, it's "Hasta la vista California, baby!".
Alex

Whom the gods destroy, they first make mad. -- Euripides
     Why Settlements? - (tablizer) - (38)
         It depends whether you considier them occupied territories - (wharris2) - (24)
             signed contract - (tablizer) - (21)
                 Can't speak for every case - (wharris2) - (20)
                     wharris forgets - (duke) - (19)
                         The key question is then: - (tablizer) - (18)
                             Settlements and occupied territory - (bluke) - (17)
                                 Brilliant rationalization for Greater Israel. - (a6l6e6x) - (16)
                                     Palestine the wasteland - (bluke) - (13)
                                         Re: Palestine the wasteland and Arafat the Egyptian. - (a6l6e6x) - (12)
                                             The significance of Arafat the Egyptian - (bluke)
                                             Re: Palestine the wasteland - (bluke)
                                             Who are the Palestinians? - (bluke) - (9)
                                                 And to sum it all up. - (a6l6e6x) - (8)
                                                     Show me otherwise - (bluke) - (7)
                                                         It takes incredible arrogance... - (a6l6e6x) - (6)
                                                             They can call themselves Martians ... - (bluke)
                                                             Palestinians: Israel simply is not yours - (bluke) - (3)
                                                                 Hear ye, hear ye -NT - (wharris2)
                                                                 "Gaza, West Bank, & E. Jerusalem are Spoils of War". - (a6l6e6x) - (1)
                                                                     Re: "Gaza, West Bank, & E. Jerusalem are Spoils of War". - (bluke)
                                                             More facts about the "Palestinians" - (bluke)
                                     err blacks in South Africa? - (boxley) - (1)
                                         Re: err blacks in South Africa? - (a6l6e6x)
             Don't forget - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                 outliers or backed? - (tablizer)
         The basic reason... - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
             There are still empty deserts in Isreal, no? -NT - (tablizer) - (1)
                 Water: there as everywhere. - (Ashton)
         prolly should get bluke to answer but will give it a shot - (boxley) - (9)
             But - (tablizer) - (8)
                 Want to whine about contracts boyyo - (boxley) - (7)
                     Say what you want about the U.S.A... - (CRConrad) - (6)
                         Yup. - (inthane-chan)
                         they arnt? }:-> - (boxley) - (4)
                             The devil is in the details - (tablizer) - (3)
                                 yes, have you had a hep C vacine? - (boxley) - (2)
                                     I know there have been serious abuses... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                         yes all, it is explained to us that since we have - (boxley)

It's a Berkeley DB file - neat! I love retro.
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